EDIT 02/Mar/2019: I am not The Sixth Siren, this is a reblog of one of her posts. From now on, any comments addressing me as if I am The Sixth Siren will be deleted. From now on any comments that contain the same basic arguments that have been refuted in the comment thread x number of times already will be deleted. If you want to engage me and try to prove me wrong about BDSM, you need to actually read the comment thread and understand what I have already said on the subject first.
TRIGGER WARNING for explicit and disturbing content
My first hour on Fetlife and I was already finding predatory behavior. I went on to start and contribute in discussions and some of the things I heard people saying made my stomach turn. There are things that the website claims to ban, but it’s obvious they don’t enforce it. Incest, beastiality, and pedophilia are not allowed but the forums are littered with discussions about these fetishes. There are members who point out that the website doesn’t really enforce their rules all the time. I’m just going to make a list of comments and discussions I actually saw on here, and I saved them to my computer so these are word-for-word.
- There is a forum for people who get turned on by actual news stories of rape. “Documentaries about sex trafficking are just the best. Not only do you get tearful interviews with the victim, they’re practically how-to videos for the aspiring collector or entrepreneur.” Or “I absolutely LOVE the thought of old men taking advantage of/raping little girls.. the reasoning behind it is that I love the idea of wanting someone SO BADLY that they just can’t stop, no matter how sick it it – they just HAVE to touch them and take their innocence away.” Someone even said “these people just had to the guts to follow what comes naturally to them, nothing that ends in an orgasm can be bad.” Yuck.
- One forum is so people can talk about their perfect society and what laws they would abolish. Literally every single person that answered wanted forms of abuse to be legalized. Rape, sexual harassment, domestic violence, verbal and physical abuse were mentioned by every responder. One even said that they wanted it to be legal for men to “abuse cunts to death,” and people agreed. Another person said that they don’t think rape is wrong because “it’s been around since the dawn of time and we just live in a society that says it’s wrong.”
- There is a forum for female subs to talk and one section was discussing when their dom punishes them when they aren’t supposed to. Like, if they aren’t in a 24/7 dom/sub relationship sometimes the dominant forgets and punishes the girl anyways. Most of them talk about how they did something that made their boyfriend mad and he punished her. Hitting, pepper spray, and shoving things in the girls mouth were all examples I read. And the sad thing is that these girls all said that they deserved it and shouldn’t have made him mad.
- To me the most problematic group was on that talked about raising their daughters to be submissives. Men and women both saying that if they have daughters they would teach them from an early age that they are inferior to men and that they need to be submissive to males sexually and otherwise. Some even talk about how it’s their fantasy to have their “own little fucktoys in the house.” And this is seriously a response I got for speaking out against it. “Honestly if he is going to fuck my daughter it wouldn’t make much of a difference. I’d rather know about it and be there to make sure everything is safe!!!” Disgusting mentality.
- The most active group I had discussions in was one saying women should have no rights. Most posters think that women shouldn’t even have the right to say “no,” when it comes to sex. “A woman should NEVER have the right to say no. It’s her duty to be sexually available to men whenever.” Some say that the only value women have is to be a “cook, maid, and whore to her man.” Viewing women as nothing but property was the reoccurring theme here.
- “Anorexia – The Closer to the Bone the Sweeter the Meat,” is another group on Fetlife. It’s a group that is for anorexics and people who are sexually aroused by them. But the group also says that they allow “people with bulimia and other forms of self-harm and low self esteem.” It’s mostly a bunch of posts of girls asking if they should stop eating or how much they should lose. And of course all these men are telling them that they should be anorexic and should be thin enough to see bones. Of course they request that they get to see pictures of the process. This honestly pisses me off, convincing women to starve themselves and damage their bodies just to get off.
It’s interesting that the arguments I always see defending BDSM is that “it’s consensual,” or that “nobody actually wants to rape someone or have sex with children, it’s just fantasy.” Clearly that’s not how everyone thinks and this website proves it. I’m especially curious about the people who think that a perfect society is one were rape and abuse is legal. Mainly because the big argument is BDSM is about consent, but if all rape was legal it wouldn’t be about consent, would it?
By The Sixth Siren, posted on Kink-Shamers Unite
The Sixth Siren also adds on her own blog:
Honestly I left a lot out, I could probably double this with all the stuff I had saved to my computer. Race Play was equally disturbing. People wanting to “beat a n*****,” but claimed they weren’t racist in any way. Or the people talking about how they would let a convicted sex offender into their life, even if they had kids. Saying that the danger would be a turn on. I could go on and on, and some of the things I read will be etched into my brain for a long time.
Anti-Porn Feminists 
Reblogged this on AFA Bollenstreek.
I am sad that there are women who are in so deep, they can not climb out.
And even worse, they believe they jumped in on their own.
There is no way to get them to see they were pushed.
I am a dominatrix. I do not humiliate, abuse or give pain to anyone – even if he wants it. There is a branch of BDSM which is considered ‘soft’ and that’s what I practice. I do what I wish with men (within the limits as above) and if they choose not to comply, we part and I’ll never see him again. Despite what you may see online (most of which are trolls) there are rules.
So what?
That does nothing to disprove that men use the BDSM scene to abuse women, and saying that women speaking out about their abuse are ‘trolls’ makes you part of the problem.
I’ve been on Fetlife for two years, and I’ve never seen ANYTHING like what’s described here. It is definitely possible to navigate the site and never see this sort of crap. I’m sure there are nut jobs anywhere if you go looking for them. What’s described here is a microcosm of the BDSM community that is in no way representative of my experience, or that of anyone I’ve ever talked to.
Antony Flew, from the Wikipedia definition of the ‘No True Scotsman’ informal fallacy
I notice that you only went for the softer targets, don’t you have anything thing to say about this post, or this one?
[…] radfem joined Fetlife to see what their culture is like. The results are, […]
To the “investigator” (the6thsiren?):
It’s clear from this post why someone who isn’t into BDSM, or was into a single “shallow” section of it is not the best person to objectively do a thorough and reliable look into it. The concerns you raise here are very partial and a one-sided view of the matter. While many may find it permissible to spill the details of their dirtiest fantasies online and have others that share the same fantasies join them in some virtual platform to get off together, the real life BDSM scene is highly controlled and most of those people know where the boundaries lie and how to respect them.
Because I am a male submissive, another part of BDSM that’s very much alive but you seem to quite conveniently forget or intentionally ignore in your account here is Femdom. Of particular concern to me has been online Findom and other such kind of stuff going on within Femdom because men are exploited by women that never seem to give a s**t that these men have lives and that the compulsions of a submissive man (just as with those of submissive women) sometimes work towards the destruction of their lives. Men need protection from such predatory women. Indeed, there are some authentic online Dommes that do condemn such extortionists but still much needs to be done by the online BDSM community to ensure some form of protection for guys into Findom. Moreover, I have been witness to performances where women purposely hurt men to the level of even cutting them up simply because the men consent to it and the women either get off on it or are paid for it.
There are just so many aspects of BDSM that may need attention but your simplistic perspective here is more of a reflection of a confirmation of a bias you very probably had before you even began the “investigation”. To understand BDSM and be able to find out if there is any justification in judging it as promoting abuse and rape culture (against women as with maledom or against men as with Femdom), you need a more systematic approach and a more balanced and wide treatment of it. Also, the last time I checked, the people that have ever managed to capture BDSM in its rawest form have almost entirely been people who have spent years in the scene and have sampled the extremely wide variation of behaviors, fantasies, fetishes, individuals, settings and challenges within it. You’d need to write a book and spend years of research to arrive to the conclusions you’ve so hastily drawn here.
I’m sorry for the criticism but it’s just that I felt it’s not a very fair and accurate presentation of the complex and multifaceted entity that is BDSM. I apologize in advance for any mistakes made. Thank You.
Your argument is entirely contradictory.
First you claim that it’s all fantasy and everyone respects boundaries, and that there is no abuse in the BDSM ‘scene’, then you talk about men being abused by women being a serious problem – so which is it, is it abusive or not?
Is it really realistic to believe that there is no abuse of women, but rampant abuse of men?
“Moreover, I have been witness to performances where women purposely hurt men to the level of even cutting them up simply because the men consent to it and the women either get off on it or are paid for it.”
Hang on, isn’t this just an example of ~safe, sane, consensual~ BDSM? How dare you claim that this is abusive, you obviously don’t know anything about BDSM and have a bigoted bias against this thing you know nothing about. If men consent to be cut up, and want to be cut up so much that they will pay someone to do it, how dare you call that abusive!
[Sarcasm/]
Also, are you really surprised that the women who are paid to carry out men’s sick, misogynistic, entirely self-involved (otherwise they wouldn’t have to pay for it) fantasies, might not actually like those men very much?
“the compulsions of a submissive man […] sometimes work towards the destruction of their lives”
Hmm, but when I talk about BDSM being unsafe and unhealthy, I’m accused of being a bigot.
So what do you want from me here exactly? Do you think it’s my responsibility to somehow fix this? It can’t be fixed, this is what it is, ritualised, eroticised abuse, it’s foolishness to imagine that it could be safe, ‘safe abuse’ is an oxymoron.
I’ve written and reblogged lots of posts on BDSM and I have addressed male submissives before. I reblogged this post from The Sixth Siren (I have no idea if she reads this blog or not, so addressing her directly is pointless), and it is valid for what it is, she joined Fetlife, and reported on her experiences there.
Every BDSMer thinks anything negative is misrepresentation, and their bit of the BDSM ‘scene’ is different, but the accounts of abuse just keep on coming. It’s not like abuse outside of the BDSM ‘scene’ is actually all that rare, and cover-ups aren’t all that rare either – there is a lot of abuse in the world, full stop.
Every BDSMer thinks BDSM is so complicated, it isn’t, it’s the status quo, inequality, abuse, and misogyny, in concentrated form.
I know that your previous arguments with other pro-BDSM folk may predispose you to certain expectations of what I am supposed to say, but please make a point to grant my comments some reasonable level of understanding before replying (and even quoting them).
“First you claim that it’s all fantasy and everyone respects boundaries, and that there is no abuse in the BDSM ‘scene’”
Nope, I never in any part of my comment claimed this. The part that came close (but still is very far from) the absurdity of such a claim as you accuse me of making was:
“real life BDSM scene is highly controlled and most of those people know where the boundaries lie and how to respect them.” {“most” being the important word here and no claim of lack of abuse is implied anywhere in the comment}.
“Hang on, isn’t this just an example of ~safe, sane, consensual~ BDSM? How dare you claim that this is abusive, you obviously don’t know anything about BDSM and have a bigoted bias against this thing you know nothing about. If men consent to be cut up, and want to be cut up so much that they will pay someone to do it, how dare you call that abusive!”
You do realize that exactly the same comment can be made of the “tortures” or punishments that female subs pass through? The same sarcasm so to speak. This is especially true as can be deduced from the6thsiren’s observation that “the sad thing is that these girls all said that they deserved it and shouldn’t have made him mad.” Moreover (and if you are an avid observer of the scene you’ll testify to this), I have also seen acts of highly questionable health impact being done on proven consenting adult females.
Bearing in mind the statement I made in the opening of this comment, I find it rather curious and somehow ridiculous why you’d accuse me of calling you a bigot when I did no such thing (projection?) and further maintain statements to the effect that I advance the view that BDSM lacks any abuse.
In case you missed the point I was driving at in my comment, the point was that when it comes to submission, the male sub and the female sub are in more or less the same place, at the mercy and feet of their desires and their mistresses and masters. While majority of BDSM situations I have observed in my past have been well controlled and the dom(me)s have never abused their subs’ devotions by causing them harm, some situations, for both male and female, have been very questionable and in dire need of attention (e.g. the Findom example and some extreme forms of torture for both women and men). My main point of criticism was the fact that the6thsiren went on a personal experience (not a formal and well balanced and controlled study) and somehow, from this subjective journey, managed to come to the conclusion that “BDSM is abuse and rape culture” (or is this you?). Her bias is obvious from the fact that she gives no observations whatsoever of the entire scene. She completely omits men’s position in the scene (such that one not familiar with BDSM may even think that there is no form of male abuse within).
And before you dare to suggest that women abuse is more prevalent or worse than men’s abuse within the BDSM community, please do search for, or conduct an objective study of, it and present the findings to me because words just won’t cut it. Words, subjective experiences and opinions usually just end up in people holding strong convictions and defending them to the end with no way to validate them. It’s what the6thsiren’s conclusions are: just views drawn out of personal experiences; views that contradict those I have. The only decisive factor of who’s right would be the results of an objective and thorough study into the matter.
“Every BDSMer thinks BDSM is so complicated”
I don’t know what to think of such a “strong” statement except that you may not have thought about it well before posting it (I mean… EVERY?? No wonder you have some preconceptions on what my views should be, rather than carefully understanding what my views actually are). Think about it and while you’re at it, try looking into historical views of human sexuality among experts in the area. Then come and tell me how simple it is (with the references you’ll have read).
“You do realize that exactly the same comment can be made of the “tortures” or punishments that female subs pass through? The same sarcasm so to speak.”
Umm, do you know what sarcasm means?
“I find it rather curious and somehow ridiculous why you’d accuse me of calling you a bigot when I did no such thing (projection?) and further maintain statements to the effect that I advance the view that BDSM lacks any abuse.”
I pointed out the contradictions between saying BDSM was mostly ok (‘most’ can be 99%, so ‘most’ is a minimising term), and then saying that abuse against submissive men was a real problem. The ‘scene’ cannot be both ‘mostly’ ok, and also at the same time have a serious problem.
As for the term ‘bigot’, yes, you never used that word, but plenty of other BDSMers have.
As for the rest of your comment, you’re still minimising, saying it’s mostly ok (“the majority”), and otherwise, so what? What’s your point? What do you want from me? What do you expect me to do about it?
“I don’t know what to think of such a “strong” statement except that you may not have thought about it well before posting it (I mean… EVERY?? No wonder you have some preconceptions on what my views should be, rather than carefully understanding what my views actually are)”
Umm … this is what you wrote: “There are just so many aspects of BDSM that may need attention but your simplistic perspective here is more of a reflection of a confirmation of a bias you very probably had before you even began the “investigation”. To understand BDSM and be able to find out if there is any justification in judging it as promoting abuse and rape culture (against women as with maledom or against men as with Femdom), you need a more systematic approach and a more balanced and wide treatment of it. Also, the last time I checked, the people that have ever managed to capture BDSM in its rawest form have almost entirely been people who have spent years in the scene and have sampled the extremely wide variation of behaviors, fantasies, fetishes, individuals, settings and challenges within it. You’d need to write a book and spend years of research to arrive to the conclusions you’ve so hastily drawn here.”
If that isn’t you claiming that BDSM is ‘complicated’, what is it? I’ve written about BDSM quite a lot on this blog, I always get people in the comments claiming that I just don’t get it, that it’s too complicated for my ~simplistic analysis~ (which is exactly what you’ve done here).
Also, BDSMers call non-BDSMers ‘vanilla’ implying boring or ‘flavourless’, also implying the opposite for BDSM, so yes, I do feel justified saying all BDSMers think BDSM is ‘complicated’.
“Think about it and while you’re at it, try looking into historical views of human sexuality among experts in the area. Then come and tell me how simple it is (with the references you’ll have read).”
Which experts are those then, the ones who prove what you already believe? Orgasms aren’t actually all that complicated, which is, really, what I think is so laughably tragic about BDSM, all that extra work for something that is so easy. Since orgasms are easy, all the ‘complexity’ of BDSM must be about something else – power and control perhaps? Which is exactly what the patriarchal mainstream is about too.
IF someone WANTS to be submissive it is her RIGHT to be one. is that so hard to admit?
What is your issue with a women(obviously the existence of submissive men would contracdict your belief that BDSM is a mysogynestic practice so lets conviently ignore it) who wants to accept her submissive nature? Should all women must see life exactly as you do?
Broaden your mind a little and try to think it people shouldnt be allowed to live life as they want.
you think BDSM is too much work for something so simple as an orgasm and that it must really be about power and control. Yeah so? whts so teribly wrong with that ? If you think that people who engage in such lifestyles go about their lives thinking EVERY women they see on the street must be treated like a slave then you are just kidding yourself. People who have long term BDSM relationship tend to have such strong trust which would overwhelm most vanilas(its just a term, get over it) in fact tbh i sometimes pity the wives and girlfriends who spend years being suspicious of thier partners. BDSM has such monogomus relationships… But it doesnt fit with the anti bdsm propganda does it? so find the phedophiles and the rapists in the community and then claim that that is what BDSM in general is all about. if anything i have found the women tend to be extremly careful while talking to someone and sharing informations. the subs look for a person whom they can trust fully before leting go.
And one thing which you dont seem to care for at all is the burden of reponsibilties on the dom. it is not easy taking complete responsibility of another human beign. but of course if one thinks BDSM is all about orgasms and power play then this aspect of the lifestyle will never be ponderd about.
i met a girl who after geting to know me completly surrenderd her life to me. Her soul body and mind. I am the one who looks after her. After all aspects of her life. my question to you is then why should it bother the likes of you? Why cant you let her and me live our lives the way we want to? We arent saying you should be like as are we?
“IF someone WANTS to be submissive it is her RIGHT to be one. is that so hard to admit?”
People choose to do all kinds of things that are harmful. On a philosophical level, yes, people do have the right to self-harm, but what isn’t ok is that other people take advantage of those self-destructive impulses.
“What is your issue with a women(obviously the existence of submissive men would contracdict your belief that BDSM is a mysogynestic practice so lets conviently ignore it) who wants to accept her submissive nature? Should all women must see life exactly as you do?”
If you’re going to try to make claims about me, it helps if you actually read this blog first:
https://antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/2014/08/04/qotd-for-them-it-was-a-fun-game-to-get-their-dicks-hard-to-because-once-it-was-over-they-were-able-to-take-off-their-costume-and-return-to-the-role-of-man/
And surely I have the RIGHT to question why it is that so many women ‘choose’ to be submissive?
“you think BDSM is too much work for something so simple as an orgasm and that it must really be about power and control. Yeah so? whts so teribly wrong with that ? If you think that people who engage in such lifestyles go about their lives thinking EVERY women they see on the street must be treated like a slave then you are just kidding yourself.”
Did you read the above post? It describes men and women who think exactly that.
Also, see here:
https://antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/i-deserved-this/
“People who have long term BDSM relationship tend to have such strong trust which would overwhelm most vanilas(its just a term, get over it) in fact tbh i sometimes pity the wives and girlfriends who spend years being suspicious of thier partners. BDSM has such monogomus relationships… But it doesnt fit with the anti bdsm propganda does it? so find the phedophiles and the rapists in the community and then claim that that is what BDSM in general is all about. if anything i have found the women tend to be extremly careful while talking to someone and sharing informations. the subs look for a person whom they can trust fully before leting go.”
Hmm, well other people, people whose accounts of the BDSM ‘scene’ I find much more reliable than yours, suggest otherwise:
https://antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/2012/01/29/surprise-surprise-the-bdsm-scene-is-as-much-a-patriarchal-victim-blaming-rape-culture-as-the-rest-of-our-patriarchal-victim-blaming-rape-culture/
https://antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/2014/09/19/in-other-words-thats-a-50-increase-in-likelihood-you-will-be-sexually-assaulted-and-all-you-have-to-do-is-join-the-bdsm-community/
And how does monogamy make it all ok? Monogamy just suggests women who are the victims of Stockholm Syndrome/trauma bonding.
“And one thing which you dont seem to care for at all is the burden of reponsibilties on the dom. it is not easy taking complete responsibility of another human beign. but of course if one thinks BDSM is all about orgasms and power play then this aspect of the lifestyle will never be ponderd about.”
What a load of self-serving bull-shit! Yes, having a willing slave must be such a burden, poor poor you!
“i met a girl who after geting to know me completly surrenderd her life to me. Her soul body and mind. I am the one who looks after her. After all aspects of her life. my question to you is then why should it bother the likes of you? Why cant you let her and me live our lives the way we want to? We arent saying you should be like as are we?”
It bothers me because you’re the one here making all these unsubstantiated claims – what proof do I have that she really is safe and happy? Why are you commenting here and not her? Do you allow her contact with the outside world?
And believe it or not, me writing this blog isn’t actually stopping you doing anything. In this comment thread here:
https://antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/2014/07/03/qotd-liberalism-and-the-death-of-feminism/#comment-9072
I wrote that I didn’t think BDSMers should be locked up in re-education camps ‘for their own good’.
If your BDSM relationship is so good, why do you care what I think about it? Are you maybe afraid that your ‘sub’ might read this blog and engage in some critical thinking?
I find it rather interesting that you seem to believe that your view is the only view in regards to BD/SM. Are there issues within communities such as Fetlife? Yes, no different than the issues in the vanilla world. There are extremes in all facets of life.
As a collared sub I will state I am very happy with the choices I have made for myself. Is this lifestyle for everyone? No. Does it give you the right to try and belittle or limit my choices? Again no.
I personally do not care what happens in your bedroom as long as it is something you have consented to. There in is the true issue, consent. No matter the act if consent is given you and no one else has the right to judge it.
The thing is, here’s how opinions work: everyone thinks their opinion is the correct one, and defends their opinion as correct, that’s what having an opinion is. Of course I think I’m right, who defends an opinion they don’t believe in?
I have every right to express my opinion, just as you do, and I will say what I have said many many times on this blog already, just because you choose to do something, doesn’t mean it isn’t harmful.
Also, saying BDSM in no different to the ‘vanilla world’ (there’s no such thing as a ‘vanilla community’ there’s just patriarchy, with BDSM being a sub-set there-of), isn’t true; a study carried out by a ‘scene’ PR group (ie industry insiders) found a 50% higher incidence rate of rape.
You seem to have missed a huge part of my comment. I did not say the the BD/SM community is flawless. I did however say there are extremes in all facets of life.
As for the term vanilla that is a simplistic term to describe anyone who is not in the kink or BD/SM communities. It is not meant to be insulting, just a way to differentiate without long definitions or explanations.
You also assume that my choices have been harmful to me. I get that given what you have focused on within the world of BD/SM. To be honest my reality has been very different than what you perceive the entire community to be like. I have had several vanilla relationships that were by every definition of the term abusive. My husband, who is also my Master, respects me for who I am and supports me in everything. I can not say that about anyone else.
I admit that everyone’s experience will be different. I am also the first to tell people interested in the lifestyle that there are many who will prey on them if they are not careful. A lot of what I tell people is no different than the common sense things I was taught as a child about strangers and going out to bars or parties.
Perhaps it is just differences in personal views. I am just not one to belittle another person’s choices no matter how they may differ from mine. As long as they are safe and happy that is truly all that matters to me.
“I did not say the the BD/SM community is flawless.”
I never claimed that you did, I just pointed out that an in house survey garnered statistics showing 50% more rape than in the non-BDSM ‘scene’.
“I did however say there are extremes in all facets of life.”
That doesn’t really mean anything. Pointing out one BDSM abuser, then one non-BDSM abuser as if that equalises things is nonsense. It’s the numbers that count, and as above, and elsewhere on this blog, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the BDSM ‘scene’ is a haven for abusers, more so than outside the BDSM ‘scene’.
And even if you do want to just look at ‘extremes’, has there ever been a serial killer whose behaviour wasn’t sadistic? Could there be such a thing as a ‘vanilla’ serial killer?
“As for the term vanilla that is a simplistic term to describe anyone who is not in the kink or BD/SM communities. It is not meant to be insulting”
Bollocks it is! You, personally, may like to think that, and that’s certainly the PR line, but that’s not what happens in the real world. Look here, at a BDSMer making shit up about me:
“I have no problem if missionary style once a month for 5 mins makes you ecstatically happy.”
Now what is that if not saying that anyone who is anti-BDSM (ie ‘vanilla’) is a boring prude?
Other BDSMers are even more obvious than that:
“I can guarantee that my sex life is much more exciting than yours.”
Again, this is saying that ‘vanilla’ = boring.
“You also assume that my choices have been harmful to me”
The thing is, you could be anyone. You could be some sad-sack basement-dwelling dudebro back here for the nth time with the nth new IP address. You could be trauma-bonded to a violent man. You could be giving an accurate, objective assessment of your circumstances, in which case great for you, but that doesn’t change the fact that the BDSM ‘scene’ is overall more abusive than the non BDSM ‘scene’, and is patriarchy in concentrate.
I see you enjoy putting words in people’s mouths. Perhaps I was wrong in thinking there could be a civil conversation with a true exchange of ideas, viewpoints, and information.
Your assumptions in all honesty just show that I have totally wasted my time and that the extreme feminists have no want for women to make choices for ourselves but to make choices you personally agree upon.
“I see you enjoy putting words in people’s mouths.”
Um, how is directly quoting other people putting words in their mouths?
“Perhaps I was wrong in thinking there could be a civil conversation with a true exchange of ideas, viewpoints, and information.”
Well, “a true exchange of ideas, viewpoints, and information” would involve you actually addressing the many points I’ve made, but instead you are now just name-calling.
“Your assumptions in all honesty just show that I have totally wasted my time and that the extreme feminists have no want for women to make choices for ourselves but to make choices you personally agree upon.”
Where am I telling you, or any woman, that you must do anything? I’m pointing out all the evidence of abuse in the BDSM ‘scene’; you don’t like that so you cry ‘extremist!’ (while finger-wagging at me for not being 100% civil to misogynist men).
This article, your responses, and the absolute, raging insanity you spout whilst completely negating every differing opinion make me want to vomit. It’s people like you that stigmatize the rest of us. Alice, up there, really tried: tried to speak calmly, rationally, and with composure. But you’re so chock-full of buzzwords that apparently the gods left you no room for common sense. “Patriarchy misogyny rape culture trauma-bonding RAAAAA!” These concepts have individual value, but using them to make the BS a “social justice” issue devalues them completely.
Yes, my reply is emotionally-based. I am revolted by people who do the online version of “Naa Naa, I CAN’T HEEEEEAR YOUUU!” If you’d given ANY indication, in post or in comments, that you were willing to discuss, attempt to understand, or anything of the sort, I wouldn’t be so livid. But you just blow off EVERY. OTHER. VIEWPOINT as “wrong”… with faulty logic.
See, the thing is, you can’t argue, or even debate, with an extremist. Because as soon as you make any valid point, instead of responding they throw buzzwords at you as if it changes anything, and switch ground as soon as they don’t have a valued, reasoned response. This is why, even though I used to answer BDSM questions on a public forum, I will not even bother attempting any sort of discourse. I found this link by accident via Google… and thought it HAD to be a satire. How wrong I was.
Look up the “10 Commandments of Logic”. You break them all.
You’re not an expert. You’re not a researcher. You’re not a first-hand participant. You’re someone picking and choosing “facts” to make a (rabid) point, and your fallacy is in your own statement: “of course everyone thinks their opinion is the right one”. Opinions =/= fact. No matter how desperate you are to make it look that way. Opinions can be changed, discussed, modified. And no matter how many links you selectively post, that doesn’t void out the actual truths that exist. You’re the same thing that’s wrong with that horrible f***ing “50 Shades” crap: you assume that the majority of BDSM folk are damaged/unhealthy/abusers/”trauma-bonded”(really?)/sick/whatever. And that makes you part of the problem. No actual education can ever take place sprayed with fanaticism. You just seek to inflame. With me, you’ve succeeded, but probably not how you meant to.
Good luck.
You have actually indeed been projecting what has happened from personal experience in the past onto what others’ say, so yeah, that’s kind of the definition of putting words in people’s mouths. Even in more normal relationships there is always a partner that is more dominant or passive than the other about what to do in their lives even without regard to sex. These examples were cherry picked off a random site and are not actually a valid study or proof. Do I deny there are abusive and sick people in the BDSM scene? No. Do I also deny that those that prefer ‘normal’ sexual relationships also contain abuse? No, it can happen in all walks of life and to all sorts of people, be it man or woman. Being submissive does not mean you are participating in self-harm. There are so many degrees of it because everyone is an individual, and that is what we must remember here, even you are an individual and I respect your concern for these women, I am concerned myself by subs that do not assert themselves and allow the rules to be broken, it is a saddening thing. I am not an avid participator in the scene, I don’t like more of the extreme things, I do enjoy in a sexual relationship switching between dominant behaviour and submissive behaviour. There are always boundaries and I expect my partner to respect me and treat me like an equal human being – to see me as a person more than a sex object, even if I enjoy him being masterful. You are not pointing out all the evidence – you went on one website, and cherry picked the crazy stuff, nor did you capture your screen and refer to sources of any kind. That ultimately is my problem here, you lack a coherent foundation for your postulations. I am a feminist, I support myself being equal to a man, but I also support my right to choose whether or not I want to be on the top or bottom, and whether or not I want to stay home and raise a family instead of having a career as a life choice. I really hope instead of becoming argumentative you have a true discussion with me, I would be happy to have a discussion about the things you’ve said in fact, instead of what I’ve seen so far. You seem intelligent and passionate for abused women and that -is- a good thing. I do however feel though that you aren’t giving everything said equal consideration when discussing and writing, and that sort of thing is needed when addressing social issues at large. Thank you for your time.
To claim any/all type of bdsm is abusive is kind of a ridiculous claim. Some assholes on the internet do not prove this. You’ll find predators on sites like okcupid just as you will on fet-life. I’ve honestly been on both and I had a harder time with okcupid. On fet-life though, i never ran into anything like whats depicted above (this dose not mean it didn’t happen–only that we had different experiences).
I will not deny that abuse happens within the bdsm community, but it also happens outside of it. By your logic of: ‘Abuse exists so it all must stop’ you should also be speaking against sex and relationships in general.
I am all for stopping abuse. I am not for telling others that they’re happiness is fake because…..’PATRIARCHY’! You do realize that submissive men and dominate women exist too right? Lets not forget same-sex couples who engage in the life/play style as well? Even if you want to make the claim its all abuse (which is an arrogant/ignorant claim to make), you have to accept that its gender neutral.
I am a submissive woman. My partner and I practice safely and I am happier than I could ever be. I find it incredibly offensive that people will tell me that i’m being raped or abused when i’m willingly engaging in something and enjoying that activity. As if how I feel about my own situation doesn’t matter. You know who else it is disrespectful too? People both in and out of the community who are true victims!
Also one last thing, i was skimming the comments on my way to leaving own and I found this:
“And believe it or not, me writing this blog isn’t actually stopping you doing anything. In this comment thread here:
https://antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/2014/07/03/qotd-liberalism-and-the-death-of-feminism/#comment-9072
I wrote that I didn’t think BDSMers should be locked up in re-education camps ‘for their own good’”
Well do you not have mercy? prey-tell, what would you do with us then?
Neo Ex Machinae,
Your comment is hilarious, because it is one long rant where you accuse me of not being able to argue, when you yourself haven’t put forward a single argument (as in “a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory”), just called me names!
If I break all the “10 Commandments of Logic”, then you should easily be able to demonstrate where I have done so.
It’s also hilarious that you accuse me of not listening to people who disagree with me, when (misogynist men telling me how much they hate women aside) I nearly always read and respond to what someone has said in detail (again demonstrate where I haven’t done that), I’m even responding to parts of your rant in detail, which is more than it deserves.
“Opinions =/= fact. No matter how desperate you are to make it look that way.”
I have never claimed that opinions are the same as facts, exactly the opposite in fact. I have repeatedly pointed out that if people what to prove I am wrong, they have to do more than simply say that I am wrong; I back up my opinions with evidence and sound reasoning always, which is more than you have managed to do here.
MaryJane,
I directly quoted what two people had said about BDSM vs. ‘vanilla’ sex, directly quoting someone is the exact opposite of putting words into their mouth.
Fetlife is not a ‘random site’ it is a major networking site (according to Wikipedia, it has over 3,000,000 members).
If you are going to cry ‘cherry-picking’, your own life is a cherry picked example, and one that hold much less weight than even a single subject-group on Fetlife, especially when you say that you are “not an avid participator in the scene.”
Let me make something clear here, since I am sure you haven’t bothered to read around on this blog to see what I actually think on any other subject: I do not think the ‘mainstream’ is safe, or good, or nothing bad ever happens there (I have a category called ‘we live in a rape culture’, as of typing it has 409 posts, there are only 114 posts in the ‘Anti-BDSM’ category), I never have and never will defend the patriarchal mainstream. BDSM is not actually distinct from the patriarchal mainstream, both eroticise dominance and inequality, BDSM just does it in concentrated form.
When I criticise BDSM, I aim to emphasise two things, the increased likelihood of abuse within the BDSM ‘scene’, and the fact that the eroticisation of dominance and inequality is harmful regardless of how enthusiastically someone participates in that eroticisation.
I am not the Sixth Siren, I reblogged her in good faith, and I have seen similar claims from women who have been in the scene. I don’t screen-cap everything I see on the internet (that is an impossible demand), but here are two posts which link to the original sources which show the same kind of thing, also there is this post, and this one, and this one, which are worth reading.
I am a radical feminist, I want to liberate women from patriarchy, I have no interest in making myself equal to men under the status quo; which men should I make myself equal to? The rapists, the batterers, the child-pornographers? Should I make myself equal to the men in power who have ruined the economy, not stopped environmental destruction, started wars?
You talk about equality, but get off on inequality, how does that work (beyond the magic of ‘choice’)? Why do you see sex as something completely separate to the rest of your life, and subject to a different ethical standard?
stray,
I’ve answered most of your points already in my reply to MaryJane.
I am not saying your happiness is fake, just that something can be both pleasurable and bad for you (a junk food diet for example). Also, we are conditioned into female submissiveness from birth (think Beauty and the Beast for example), of course going along with the status quo is going to feel good, conforming always does, why does my questioning of the status quo make you so angry if you are so secure in your choices?
“You know who else it is disrespectful too? People both in and out of the community who are true victims!”
I think you will find women who have exited the BDSM scene , are saying similar things to me.
It’s a shame your skimming didn’t get you as far as this post before you tried the submissive men/femdom canard out on me (in fact I linked to that post already in this thread)
“Well do you not have mercy? prey-tell, what would you do with us then?”
Why are you so desperate to prove that I want to make you do anything? I am expressing my opinions on the internet, and backing them up with sound arguments.
Radical feminism will be here for you when you need it.
“I am not saying your happiness is fake, just that something can be both pleasurable and bad for you (a junk food diet for example).”
Fair enough but then where is your anti-junkfood blog? Also a lot of things that are bad for you are still okay in moderation. Junkfood (which was your own example) being one of them.
There are several things that can be considered dangerous, that are still revered as some of the best things ever: most organized sports and sky diving for example. Safety precautions must be taken in order to do these things. Do you advocate against these things too? Or at least hold the opinion that it should all stop? According to you safety precautions, limits, and boundaries combined with consent and enjoyment aren’t enough to do something.
“Also, we are conditioned into female submissiveness from birth (think Beauty and the Beast for example), of course going along with the status quo is going to feel good, conforming always does, why does my questioning of the status quo make you so angry if you are so secure in your choices?”
For one, Bdsm isn’t status quo. the fact that a community exists and there are a lot of people who choose to be there or try it out dose not make it the norm rather than non bdsm people. Saying bdsm is status quo is the same as saying same sex couples are the majority over hetro couples. Obviously that’s not true or we wouldn’t have the lgbtq movement. The very fact that your pulling this ‘you’ve been conditioned’ card is exactly what i was talking about when I said you were calling peoples happiness fake. You can’t claim that you be-leave women (or people in general) should be free to make there own choices while simultaneously crediting every choice they make to patriarchy because it doesn’t fit in with your redorick on what makes a free woman. That is cult mentality.
I assure you i’m the exact opposite of what I was told be:
I was told to wear pants when I wanted to wear skirts and dresses
I was told to keep my hair long when I wanted to cut it short
I was told to keep my hair natural when I wanted to dye it black
I was told to be hetro-sexual when my orientation is bisexual
I was told to be christian when i’m pagan
I was even told I couldn’t date someone outside of my own race or gender
I could go on, but i honestly don’t think I need to. I never listened to any of this even in my teenage/child years. Tell me how i’m conforming to anything when i went against what I was literally told to my face what to do? I’m sure if I told these same people I was into bdsm they would tell i shouldn’t be just as you are.
““You know who else it is disrespectful too? People both in and out of the community who are true victims!”
I think you will find women who have exited the BDSM scene , are saying similar things to me.”
I don’t deny that people who have bad experiences with bdsm would end up not liking it. That doesn’t give you the right to tell people who consent that they’re being raped.
Rape is literally sex without consent. That means consent stops it from being rape,
You don’t get to re-define this because you don’t like something. If the people talking to you that happen to be victims don’t see why their being disrespected when you lump people who are enjoying themselves with people who aren’t. Then they may not understand the definitions of rape and consent which would make me wonder if they’re really victims. This is because you would think the stop rape and abuse campaigns would be focused on those who don’t consent vs. those who do. I would think that victims would want those like them being prioritized over people who are perfectly fine. Also the link you gave me didn’t send me to anyone claiming to be a victim, but rather bashing those who disagree with their view.
“It’s a shame your skimming didn’t get you as far as this post before you tried the submissive men/femdom canard out on me (in fact I linked to that post already in this thread)”
Why would I have gotten to that post when its not even in this thread? My reaction was to what was posted here. Though I suppose i might have clicked the link if i saw it. This post ignored same sex couples (which i also presented). I the post makes absolutely no sense.
She was dominating a man to please him. So because he got pleasure its misogyny. While at the same time when a man dominates a woman for her pleasure its not misandry?
You can’t have it both ways. Either a sub is being abused despite consent or not. Which I would go with not due to my own experience and the experience of people I’ve talked to and know in real life.
Again there are abusive people in the bdsm community but they exist outside of it as well.
“Why are you so desperate to prove that I want to make you do anything? I am expressing my opinions on the internet, and backing them up with sound arguments”
I’m not desperate to prove anything to you. I just expressed my opinion just as you are. It’s just that most people wouldn’t come up with something like that unless it was already in there mind somehow and you seem to think that we’re soo dangerous to ourselves. You claim all doms in existence are abusive rapists and all subs in existence are victims weather there happy or not.
Why would you not want to come up with a solution for that? You won’t be able to eradicate bdsm by running a blog and yet it seems thats what you want to do.
I apologize for the poor grammar in some parts.
stray,
If your next comment is as long as the one @12:59, I am deleting it unread, I do this blog in my very limited spare time, you are not entitled to this much of it.
Asking where my anti-junkfood blog is is trite, there is already plenty of info out in the mainstream about healthy diets, I do not need to blog about it. Where’s your anti-junkfood blog?
I think if you bothered to actually read this blog properly, you would understand what I actually think about BDSM, I think you are being deliberately obtuse because you think it is the same as making a clever argument, it isn’t.
BDSM is the status quo because violence, dominance and degradation are the status quo, BDSMers like to think they are ‘transgressing’ in some way, but they are not.
“You can’t claim that you be-leave women (or people in general) should be free to make there own choices while simultaneously crediting every choice they make to patriarchy because it doesn’t fit in with your redorick on what makes a free woman.”
Of course I can. It is entirely consistent to say that people should be free (within certain limits) to make bad choices. We are bombarded with messages about what to be and do every day, some of it sticks, some of it doesn’t; unless you want to get into a deep philosophical and/or neuro-scientific discussion about the nature of free will, you are going to have to accept that the choices we make are influenced by our environment.
“I assure you i’m the exact opposite of what I was told be:”
From your list, it looks like you had a very traditional, conservative up-bringing, and you rebelled against that by choosing another set of ‘rules’ to follow (bisexual, pagan goth into BDSM is as much of a cliché as Bible-reading house-wife).
“I’m sure if I told these same people I was into bdsm they would tell i shouldn’t be just as you are”
Where am I telling you you MUST do anything?
“That doesn’t give you the right to tell people who consent that they’re being raped.”
Where have I said that?
“If the people talking to you that happen to be victims don’t see why their being disrespected when you lump people who are enjoying themselves with people who aren’t. Then they may not understand the definitions of rape and consent which would make me wonder if they’re really victims.”
Wow, so anyone who doesn’t follow your line on BDSM is lying about being a victim? That’s some pretty disgusting victim blaming you’ve got going on there.
“Why would I have gotten to that post when its not even in this thread?”
It’s very clearly linked to in this thread, and very obviously in the context of someone else trying to tell me I’ve never heard of female dommes, you might have seen it and avoided embarrassing yourself by repeating the accusation.
“She was dominating a man to please him. So because he got pleasure its misogyny. While at the same time when a man dominates a woman for her pleasure its not misandry?
You can’t have it both ways. Either a sub is being abused despite consent or not.”
That is a far too simplistic summery of the post and following comment thread, I am not going to reiterate the whole thing here, but I suggest you go back and read it again.
Let me spell something out for you: we live in a patriarchy. What men, all men, want, is obedience; some men want you to be a good Christian/Muslim/Hindu girl, other men want you to be a ‘slut’, but they all want you to do what they want. Female subs and female dommes both fit into that paradigm of doing what men want which is why female dommes are still a part of patriarchy.
“You won’t be able to eradicate bdsm by running a blog and yet it seems thats what you want to do.”
I don’t think I’m going to eradicate anything just by writing a blog (where have I claimed otherwise?). I am realistic about what one person can achieve, I am not dictator of the world – so what is your actual point here?
“Let me spell something out for you: we live in a patriarchy. What men, all men, want, is obedience; some men want you to be a good Christian/Muslim/Hindu girl, other men want you to be a ‘slut’, but they all want you to do what they want. Female subs and female dommes both fit into that paradigm of doing what men want which is why female dommes are still a part of patriarchy.” So apparently absolutely no choice a woman makes is her own? And literally everything that ever happens is a mans fault? wow you just proved my point about not wanting to let people make there own choices. Take some responsibility for yourself, huh? “Wow, so anyone who doesn’t follow your line on BDSM is lying about being a victim? That’s some pretty disgusting victim blaming you’ve got going on there.” I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it that way. Let me rephrase with a question: why would a victim be okay with people trying to rescue those who unlike them are happy with where they are? (I am talking of course abusive situation vs. non situation). Anyway I think i’ll stop here because apparently responding to your points makes me seem ‘entitled’. Despite the fact that I disagree with you strongly disagree with you. I still want to thank you because without your blog I wouldn’t have found my account again after 5 years.
Thank you very much for this post. The rage and “indignation” that you have caused among abuse-apologists (BDSMers) only serves as evidence of the measures they will take to flood dissent in order to protect their “right” to blood, tears, cuffs, whips, cuts and slashes.
Their “right” to human violence hidden behind the corruption of consent.
stray,
I can answer any and all points you care to make, what I refuse to do is be an essay on demand service – you say BDSM is all about respecting boundaries, but get sniffy when I impose my own.
“So apparently absolutely no choice a woman makes is her own? And literally everything that ever happens is a mans fault? wow you just proved my point about not wanting to let people make there own choices.”
From the comment you left here, you grew up in a community where you were always told what to do. You then swapped it for another community where you would be constantly told what to do, and now you are desperate to ‘prove’ that I am telling you what to do – you seem to have a great need to be told what to do.
Seriously though, point to where on this blog I have said anyone must do anything. Do you think that if you goad me enough I’ll crack and admit to being a mustachio-twirling super-villain with an underground lair and plans for global domination, and this blog is the first step in that plan for global domination?
We are influenced by our environments and upbringing, recognising that is not the same as saying there’s no such thing as free will.
“Let me rephrase with a question: why would a victim be okay with people trying to rescue those who unlike them are happy with where they are? (I am talking of course abusive situation vs. non situation).”
Again, where am I doing that? Do you understand the difference between engaging with someone’s argument and bashing a straw [radical feminist]? Because nothing you’ve said so far indicates that you do.
Thank you for your comment edamim!
“I can answer any and all points you care to make, what I refuse to do is be an essay on demand service – you say BDSM is all about respecting boundaries, but get sniffy when I impose my own.”
that long comment was simply responding to what you said in response to my original comment. Everything I said was a response to a quote. You then make a response equally as long right after telling me that you would delete my comment if it was just as long. It would have had to be to respond to everything you said.
“From the comment you left here, you grew up in a community where you were always told what to do. You then swapped it for another community where you would be constantly told what to do, and now you are desperate to ‘prove’ that I am telling you what to do – you seem to have a great need to be told what to do.”
you do realize that not everyone in the bdsm community chooses to do 24/7 right? I for one do enjoy a little power exchange, but my partner knows how far is too far. I told you I don’t care about proving anything. If I was really desperate to prove something I could have gone on about stuff you said about my list (such as assuming that I was ‘goth’ because of my hair dye for example).
“We are influenced by our environments and upbringing, recognizing that is not the same as saying there’s no such thing as free will.”
No its not. However your claim is that bdsm is always abuse, while simultaneously insisting that the female is the victim no matter what. It would seem that according to you, even if he’s the abused, she’s still the victim (and you accuse me of victim blaming. At least I know that anyone can be a victim regardless of gender). Also if your claiming that patriarchy is the only influence ever and nothing else goes into play then yes, that is the same as saying free will doesn’t exist (at least for women). You may not be telling me specifically what to do. However your very title claims that i and others like me are promoting abuse and rape. You seem to think that going on one website for one hour is enough to prove that its ALL BAD. You seem to think that victims and abuse existing within the community means everyone under the bdsm umbrella is either abusive or a victim, without recognizing that the same thing happens in regular relationships. If you did recognize this then your claim would throw the abuse/rape promotion umbrella on them too. So long as everyone within the relationship is happy and consenting to whatever dynamic they choose. Its not up to you or anyone else to tell them that they’re doing something wrong.
stray,
I formatted your comment for you, I don’t know why you started taking out the paragraph breaks, it doesn’t make your comment shorter, just harder to read (surely you understand that the length of a piece of writing is the word count, not the area it occupies measured in centimetres).
For someone who said they were going to stop, you were back here very quickly to start commenting again.
“that long comment was simply responding to what you said in response to my original comment […]”
Yes, yes, yes, I’m replying to you and you’re replying to me, on and on and on. What I would prefer, generally, from everyone, is that they make a point, and make it well, then it can be discussed intelligently, and after that another point can be discussed (it’s not like I’m going anywhere). Your comments are rambling, repetitive, poorly written, and half the time you are arguing not with something I’ve said, but something you’ve made up about me.
“you do realize that not everyone in the bdsm community chooses to do 24/7 right?”
Please stop wasting my time with ‘do you know [really obvious thing about BDSM]?’ Yes, I do know [really obvious thing about BDSM], I know all the really obvious things about BDSM.
“I told you I don’t care about proving anything. If I was really desperate to prove something I could have gone on about stuff you said about my list (such as assuming that I was ‘goth’ because of my hair dye for example).”
Oh I do apologise for calling you a goth, and thank you so much for not derailing this comment thread into a complete dead-end, that’s so considerate of you.
“However your claim is that bdsm is always abuse, while simultaneously insisting that the female is the victim no matter what.”
I do think BDSM is abusive, it is harmful regardless of how much the victim wants to be harmed. That opinion is entirely compatible with free will, people can freely choose to do things that are harmful.
“Also if your claiming that patriarchy is the only influence ever and nothing else goes into play then yes, that is the same as saying free will doesn’t exist (at least for women).”
Err, no. I haven’t claimed that patriarchy is the only influence, and even if I had, that is still not the same as saying there is no such thing as free will.
Tell me what you actually think free will means, because you seem to be claiming that admitting to any outside influence on behaviour negates free will.
“It would seem that according to you, even if he’s the abused, she’s still the victim (and you accuse me of victim blaming. At least I know that anyone can be a victim regardless of gender).”
Let me explain a few things to you about power dynamics: we live in a patriarchy, that means men (particularly white, middle class men) have more power, more money, more choices.
We live in a society where women are raised to do what men want, and men are raised to expect women to do what they want. Women are also raised to see their only value as coming from their (sexual) relationships to men.
These dynamics carry over into BDSM, regardless of what is going on inside any particular BDSM bubble.
When a man is paying a woman to dominate him (dominatrixes), or paying a woman to submit to him (professional subs or regular prostitution), that dynamic is very different to a woman submitting to a man she relies on for her sense of self-worth, within a BDSM ‘community’ where he is seen as a pillar of said ‘community’, and she knows that if he pushes or violates her limits, everyone else will turn a blind-eye.
Do I think no man could ever be abused? No, do I think women are never abusers? No.
That blog post and the following comment thread, the one you claim is me saying men can never be victims, isn’t really about victimisation (of men or women) at all. What it is about is the fact that BDSMers claim that the existence of male subs and female dommes ‘proves’ that BDSM can’t be misogynist; but when the man is getting off on being ‘treated like a woman’, he is getting off on misogyny, so it is therefore misogynist.
“You seem to think that victims and abuse existing within the community means everyone under the bdsm umbrella is either abusive or a victim, without recognizing that the same thing happens in regular relationships.”
Oh please, try actually reading this blog, I am highly critical of the mainstream, the mainstream is misogynistic and full of abuse, BDSM is just the same thing but in higher concentration.
The particular set-up of BDSM makes abuse more likely, and the victim being disbelieved and ostracised more likely. It is a ‘community’ designed to hand over vulnerable people to other people (there, I’m being gender neutral now, are you happy?) who enjoy inflicting psychological and physical violence on them, how is that not a recipe for disaster?
“I formatted your comment for you, I don’t know why you started taking out the paragraph breaks, it doesn’t make your comment shorter, just harder to read (surely you understand that the length of a piece of writing is the word count, not the area it occupies measured in centimetres).”
Thank you. I realized it was hard to read when I reread it myself. However I’m of the opinion that anything you do with what you type can either lengthen or shorten the product.
“For someone who said they were going to stop, you where back here very quickly to start commenting again.”
I was talking about that specific comment. When I get a reply from somebody, I tend to think a response is the good natured thing to do. As it shows you read what they had to say.
“I do think BDSM is abusive, it is harmful regardless of how much the victim wants to be harmed. That opinion is entirely compatible with free will, people can freely choose to do things that are harmful.”
I already brought up a point about this which you ignored. Here: “There are several things that can be considered dangerous, that are still revered as some of the best things ever: most organized sports and sky diving for example. Safety precautions must be taken in order to do these things. Do you advocate against these things too? Or at least hold the opinion that it should all stop?”
“We live in a society where women are raised to do what men want, and men are raised to expect women to do what they want. Women are also raised to see their only value as coming from their (sexual) relationships to men.”
except when a man dose what a woman wants, you still call it patriarchy. So either way if he gets pleasure or enjoys something (and this doesn’t necessarily need to be sex) he still gets the short end of the stick no matter who decides or asks for what. Also the ‘sex’ thing isn’t true. I’ve met plenty of men who are better than that–including my current partner and some of my platonic friends.
“That blog post and the following comment thread, the one you claim is me saying men can never be victims, isn’t really about victimisation (of men or women) at all. What it is about is the fact that BDSMers claim that the existence of male subs and female dommes ‘proves’ that BDSM can’t be misogynist; but when the man is getting off on being ‘treated like a woman’, he is getting off on misogyny, so it is therefore misogynist.”
Not all submissive men do this, but this comment makes me wonder what you think about transgenders? Are they misogynist too?
“The particular set-up of BDSM makes abuse more likely, and the victim being disbelieved and ostracised more likely. It is a ‘community’ designed to hand over vulnerable people to other people (there, I’m being gender neutral now, are you happy?) who enjoy inflicting psychological and physical violence on them, how is that not a recipe for disaster?”
I never said stuff like this didn’t happen. Obviously if something happens against your will its tragic and wrong, and your entitled to justice. Again, though It happens outside of this in ‘mainstream’ as well. Though I digress because you claim to criticize that too. The point I’m trying to make is that blanket statements shouldn’t be made. A person can be a dom and respect the limits of the sub. People can be happy and yes, even healthy in that dynamic. Their are plenty of subs (myself included) who don’t consider themselves victims. Those who of us who are happy don’t want to be lumped in with a bunch of creeps. shitty people doing shitty things within any community dose not equal everyone else within that same community being, for lack of a better word: evil (you can apply this to any community not just bdsm).
“However I’m of the opinion that anything you do with what you type can either lengthen or shorten the product.”
Your opinion here is laughable, try handing in an essay where you increased the font size because the teacher said it was too short – do you think that would work?
“When I get a reply from somebody, I tend to think a response is the good natured thing to do. As it shows you read what they had to say.”
You know what, I would be very happy if you didn’t bother.
“I already brought up a point about this which you ignored. Here: “There are several things that can be considered dangerous […]”
‘Dangerous’ and ‘harmful’ are two separate concepts, I believe BDSM is harmful even when all of its (entirely inadequate) ‘safety measures’ are followed.
“except when a man dose what a woman wants, you still call it patriarchy.”
No, no, no, seriously, please try to actually understand what I am writing before you come here to make a fool of yourself and waste my time. I wrote very specifically about dommes and subs who are doing what men want them to do, who are often paid by men to do these things.
“Also the ‘sex’ thing isn’t true. I’ve met plenty of men who are better than that–including my current partner and some of my platonic friends.”
They are just better at hiding their entitlement. Try telling your partner you don’t want to have sex for a month, see what happens then.
“Not all submissive men do this”
DID YOU EVEN READ THAT COMMENT THREAD? I spent a very long time explaining to some idiot dude that it isn’t just about ‘forced feminisation’, that it is about the very concepts of ‘masculine’ ‘feminine’ ‘dominance’ and ‘submission’.
“but this comment makes me wonder what you think about transgenders? Are they misogynist too?”
Ha ha ha ha ha, you really are clueless aren’t you? and you obviously haven’t looked at a single other thing on this blog.
(Also, you are a transphobe, by mainstream transactivist standards, because you are saying that the internal gender identity of a trans person is a fetish.)
“Those who of us who are happy don’t want to be lumped in with a bunch of creeps. shitty people doing shitty things within any community dose not equal everyone else within that same community being, for lack of a better word: evil (you can apply this to any community not just bdsm).”
Then actually do something real to get your house in order, instead of coming here to pester me. Turning a blind-eye to abuse, covering up, making excuses, attacking critics, ostracising victims and whistle-blowers, that makes you part of the problem.
stray, you are a time waster; you are either too lazy or too stupid to actually bother reading and trying to understand what I have written, and unless your next comment contains real evidence of you doing so, I am going to delete it. I will not go round and round in circles with you any more about whether BDSM is harmful or not, whether the creeps are the majority or not, and I am not interested in your nigel.
[comment deleted]
Alice King wrote:
“My husband, who is also my Master, respects me for who I am and supports me in everything.”
MaryJane wrote:
“I expect my partner to respect me and treat me like an equal human being – to see me as a person more than a sex object, even if I enjoy him being masterful.”
An equal relationship is an equal relationship. It scares me that we have to point this out. A situation in which one person’s relationship to another is based on authority, control, and domination violates the meaning and essence of equality. A person who wants to dominate you does not respect you. You cannot support someone by placing them in a position of subordination i.e. inferiority. Yes, consent is critical and individuals have a right to choose whether or not to participate in these types of relationships. But there’s another side to this: no human being has the right to assume a position of supremacy over another. If they feel the need to do so, they need therapy, not someone to work their anxieties out on. Especially when that person is a man who already enjoys a power advantage over women. It seems awfully odd to me that the people who claim to truly enjoy sex are those who don’t enjoy it when it’s, you know, just sex. Strange, that.
‘Equality’ and ‘respect’ are just pieces of hollow rhetoric when they are not backed up by real world actions.
Abusive misogynist men say they ‘respect’ women, and hold them to be ‘equals’, while they engage in behaviour that completely contradicts these claims.
It’s become another piece of identity politics, men ~self identify~ as ‘respecting’ women, and then feel like they have a free pass for all their abusive behavior.
[…] From the comment thread here […]
You pro-BDSM people really need to take a reading comprehension class, get a damn dictionary, and pay more attention to your own lives than to what someone believes about the BDSM “community” in general because if you really were happy and secure in yourselves you wouldn’t be justifying yourselves to some online stranger.
I only ever dipped my toes into the shallow end of the BDSM pool. I felt stupid and couldn’t take it seriously, so I quit. I can’t fathom the mindset that equates control with love or that could ever drive a person to hit someone they supposedly love. I don’t care if you set rules for it, you’re still abusive control freaks or are obsessed with obeying same.
As racists love to point out, there were black people who owned slaves in the U.S. Didn’t make slavery right or an “alternative lifestyle choice” and didn’t make the institution any less racist (no one owned whites, after all). No one is going to show up at your door and forcibly stop you from acting like abusive idiots, but the fact you’re here getting all butthurt because the blog author won’t let you mansplain* her into shutting up about you speaks volumes. If you felt OK with your lives you would not be here defending them. Full stop.
What’s the matter… afraid your abuse-victim supply will dry up? Probably.
[*A tactic sometimes adopted by “dominant” female patriarchy-supporters as well.]
[EDIT: No, you do not get to come back here after wasting so much of my time and energy before, you are not welcome on this blog; you had a more than generous opportunity, and you wasted it. Go away.]
Pretty damn funny…… You and your minke minded ilk have the same exact views on this as Pat Robertson and The 700 Club! Who knew that feminists and evangelical Christians had so much in common? I mean REALLY…. who KNEW???
Really? I’m not aware of Evangelical Christians giving all that much of a shit about violence against women.
In fact, it’s BDSMers and Evangelical Christians who actually have ideology in common, both view women as chattel to own and exploit.
Oh, and I’ve already covered the ‘you’re in league with religious fundamentalists!’ argument, so try harder.
Please correct me if I’m wrong. One of the primary techniques used by people that are NOT BDSM participants and whose experience isn’t LIMITED to a few hours of searching a website is purposefully seeking out the most horrible parts of a forum in order to justify an argument? Sadly, I can unequivocally state that for the massive amount of time I’ve been on Fetlife I’ve encountered only two such postings in the context of a rape. One was a biological theory of plunder and the other was a piece of erotica, not to me, but to the author. Mind you in this case, the author had warned people up front, as this blog has, that the writing was merely fantasy.
I’m not arguing that rape as a fantasy personally doesn’t seem horrifying to me, it does.
I am stating with certainty that the majority of people on Fetlife do NOT condone rape. In fact, many of the participants avidly deplore such writings and
a) Do not seek them out
b) Bash the people who write them
c) Only abide by mutual consent
That being said, I assume that the original blog author has been on the internet. Surely Fetlife has its dark corners………. just as YouTube, Reddit, Facebook and EVERY other place where people are afforded ANONYMITY to speak reveal themselves.
However, to make the claim that BDSM is about rape culture is not only patently absurd, but deliberately false and misleading. The majority of BDSM participants are not only adherents of safety and consent, but we are friends, colleagues, neighbors and sometimes lovers. There are many BDSM participants that are only into sensualism and or/ Cosplay. Others are merely husband and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends, boyfriends and boyfriends, etc. that love each other and choose to spice up their sex lives as they see fit. Violence need not be a part of BDSM. Rape most certainly isn’t.
Is there abuse in the BDSM community? Yes. Is there abuse in regular vanilla relationships? Yes. Is there abuse by the police? Government? Churches? Celebrities? Sports stars? All yes.
Compartmentalizing, demonizing, over-generalizing and engaging in intellectually dishonest attempts at demagoguery do not bolster your argument. They make you lose credibility. They also make you someone who panders to their audiences and their confirmation biases.
Instead of taking an honest look and listening to the actual people who have been to dungeons, been involved in the community, have support groups, and love one another, you’ve neglected to make a single concession as to the veracity of the experiences of others. You could have done a great deal of good on your own here by learning from people who have walked in different shoes than you. Instead you have allowed your own position to blindside you, while others, fortunately for your readers here, have challenged your ignorance and hyperbole.
Living in a vacuum has it’s downsides. Surely you might be protected from the nefarious evils you imagine, but you’re likely surrounded by your own dirt.
My problem with this whole line of argumentation is that it implies that the only way for a woman to have agency is if she’s constantly bucking the status quo – anything else is victimhood – unless she’s bucking the status quo in the “wrong” way, in which case even more victimhood.
Society is patriarchal, and therefore any appreciation of strong men is just cultural indoctrination. Enjoying the experience of being dominated by a partner is internalized rape culture. Yadda yadda.
Here’s the thing – while I completely accept that culture influences our thoughts and behaviors, I don’t think that makes me a victim. I’m a fully formed adult human – an admittedly imperfect creature with conflicting impulses, social indoctrination warring with intrinsic motivation, muddled by chemical reactions, hormones, and natural cycles – and I can make my own decisions. If those decisions sometimes involve adventurous sex in strange positions using unusual props and involving an enthusiastic partner? That’s my business. Can it be risky? Sure, but what’s life without some risks? Other people may look at my sex life kind of how I look at people who voluntarily jump out of airplanes, and that’s fine. I’m not asking you to participate. Different strokes.
I generally consider myself a feminist, but the online sjw feminism really loses me on some points. For me, feminism has always been about equality and freedom both. All people should be allowed to live their lives and pursue their own happiness – even if they do it in ways that weird me out, or even result in harm. No one learns how to ride a bike without falling off and hurting themselves at least once – does that mean it’s not worth doing at all? Resilience and strength are attributes that cannot be built without trials and experience. “Some people get hurt” is just not a good enough reason for me to give up what I find to be a worthwhile activity. I try to cause as little direct harm in my life as possible, but I also don’t feel the need to blame all the world’s social ills on my own actions.
You have a right to your opinion, negative or positive. You’ve not claimed to be an expert or a participant in the lifestyle (clearly you are neither). You’ve opened my eyes to activities and comments that I’ve not seen on Fetlife or in my real life and that is a good thing. As a Producer, Protector and Gatekeeper of alternative lifestyle events it keeps me on my toes and awake to theses individuals and their behaviors.
As long as you realize and state that these are simply your opinions No Foul, No Harm. There’s darkness within the souls of many individuals no matter the side of life the choose to walk on. I’ve witnessed great joy within the BDSM community and sadness as well but that can be said for every activity that involves human beings. I find it funny to read these heated or should I say impassioned debates over the activities of a group as vast as BDSM. For those of you who feel the need to defend your lifestyle because of what has been written here DON’T. The writer’s opinion doesn’t matter anymore than our own. There’s no insight, no participation, no eye witness accounts, only data gathering and summation. Instead do what you can to make your choices and experiences and those who share them with as enriching, positive, enlightening and joyful as you are able. This writer is not the first nor the last to express a strong negative opinion. BDSM will continue long after we’re gone Believe it! Live it! It’s your life not theirs. They don’t matter.
And to make things much worse I read a book which had murder ,sacrifice of children total disregard for women’s rights ….and a hefty list of people involved in every kind of sick behavior……………..the HOLY BIBLE!!!!!!!!
Just goes to show …look and you will find (anywhere)……the same as there were bad people doing bad things in the bible doesnt mean its the christian way.
If you can find bad people in BDSM doesnt mean its the BDSM way either …….wake up!!!!!
I love going to the zoo and watching the monkeys fight.
You’re original post accomplished what you wanted, you got attention. Happy now, are you? No truth was served, no consciousness was raised, no good was done, not one single person was helped. Wait, I guess you were, I mean, look at the SIZE of this thread.
Congratulations on your success.
I love to watch monkeys at the zoo fight.
To quote the great and wise Hermonie Granger, “what an idiot.”
Fetlife is not the cesspool you are describing here. You picked the absolute worst postings you could find, and by themselves, without any context, of course fetlife is going to seem like nothing but depraved, sick people. To base an entire culture of people based on one source of information is irresponsible. You haven’t done any research, credible research. You didn’t interview real sources or talked to anyone in the community. For shame.
Oh dear oh dear, here we go again. Someone has linked to me on fetlife, so now a bunch of BDSMers have come over to clutch their metaphorical pearls at me as they defend the eroticisation of inequality and abuse.
Chris Feldt,
This is not my only post on BDSM, this is not the only piece of evidence I am using to justify my opinion that the BDSM scene is a haven for abusers.
I have the category Anti-BDSM, there are, as of writing, 134 posts, and there is plenty of other stuff I have seen on line to support my opinion of the BDSM ‘scene’ including from women and men who were in the scene.
If you had bothered to read the comment thread, you would have seen I have already said that there is plenty of abuse in the main stream, the BDSM ‘scene’ is just the patriarchal, misogynistic mainstream in concentrate.
Leanne Gray,
Did you bother to read the comment thread? I already said that I don’t think BDSMers should be rounded up into re-education camps ‘for their own good.’
You are free to make ‘bad choices’, and I am free to point out how dangerous and full of abusers the BDSM ‘community’ is.
Also, which men should I make myself equal to? The batters and rapists? The warmongers and environmental destroyers?
Foster,
“There’s no insight, no participation, no eye witness accounts, only data gathering and summation.”
Err, you don’t quite understand the words you are using here, I’m quoting someone describing the groups they have witnessed on Fetlife.
As for insight, you obviously haven’t bothered reading this comment thread before leaving your own comment.
Sterrrr,
You really don’t understand what evidence is. The bible is a set of allegorical stories written thousands of years ago, do you think fetlife existed thousands of years ago??
If I wanted to find out about abuse committed by Christians, I wouldn’t read the bible, I would just read the latest news reports on the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church:
http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2015/09/catholic-church-criticised-at-un-human-rights-council-over-continued-failure-to-address-child-sex-abuse
Or how about the Christian sect in the US that beat a teenaged boy to death for refusing to confess his ‘sins’:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/17/new-york-church-beating-teen-whipped-word-of-life
You know, evidence.
Blackring,
Know you are, said you are, what am I then?
Lil_ball_of_fury,
You haven’t bothered to read this comment thread, or a single other thing I’ve written on this blog, so shame on you.
Do you think Blackring realised he was also describing his fellow BDSMers as ‘monkeys fighting at the zoo’?
Welcome to being a huge part of the demise of feminism. The moment women attempt to dictate what I should be doing they show they are no different than the system they supposedly are fighting
Where am I dictating anything to anyone?
And how do I have the power to make you, or any one else, do anything?
The 'radical' in radical feminist means going to the root of things, understanding how things really work. The idea that I, expressing my opinion on the internet, somehow have more influence over women than all the multifarious forces of white supremacist, capitalist, patriarchy, is farcical.
Hello,
I’m a fetlife user, I found your article very interesting and shockingly gross. I am not trying to excuse any of these comments or behaviours and typically I don’t agree with them either. I just want to let people understand from a different perspective.
I was digitally raped as a child which in some way had psychological effects on me and yet I have rape fantasies (they developed around the same time). I believe my fantasies allowed me to gain control even though I didn’t want to have it anymore. I felt disgusted with myself for years but it is what made me hot (sorry for the crude language). As I grew these fantasies became an obsession that I needed to tame in a controlled, ruled and safe environment which happened to be among the thousand of fetlife users.
Most of these fantasies aren’t to do with the act itself, they are control and power fantasies. My rape fantasies allowed me to have the sense of letting go of control yet still have the ability to stop it (if I wished to do so with a safe word), it’s an illusion of power. What you are observing in the comments above from fetlife users is the extreme (which is in every society and community).
I wish you wouldn’t judge a whole community, who allow people to experience their fantasies without shame and disgust, because some of the users on fetlife who are pretenders and predators have seized an opportunity to prey on a new and developing society.
Your next article that has to do with fetlife, talk to and befriend some of the users both male, female and the in-betweens. This will broaden your understanding and hopefully tame some of the extreme people who give fetlifers a bad reputation.
Thank you,
Renee
I want to point out your title issue that ‘BDSM is abuse and rape’. As I had stated above I had experienced digital rape which some might say it has effected my psychological well being and ability to choose a healthy relationship for myself. Maybe it has or hasn’t, no one will know for sure but I can’t let that stop me from doing what I want. I would be more productive to state that ‘True BDSM scenes have been invaded by abuse and rape’? It’s less aggressive and quite a catchy heading.
It is personally insulting to say the community that has helped me to overcome and turn my negative experiences into positive experiences IS the thing it aided me to overcome. I wouldn’t let people touch me but through a control and trust filled environment a mentor helped me overcome that fear. Also would it be fair to state that non-BDSM is non-abusive and non-rape?, no it wouldn’t! When you make a report on a society focus on the dark shadows by all means but to make it unbiased you have to be willing to see the light and beauty as well. Under no circumstances can you make a generalised statement, it’s too broad and vague therefore false.
Rape happens everywhere, no matter whether your it’s in the BDSM or non BDSM, the same applies for abuse. You can’t pinpoint one society or community and say without a shadow of a doubt that it happens more in this community than another. The simple reason for this is because many women and men in BDSM and non BDSM don’t report it and you can’t possibly have access to all of fetlife users therefore can’t get an accurate statistic. Also there is no way (or it would be very difficult) to compare different societies due to size, spread and more differences. The reason BDSM communities perceive to have higher statistics for rape is because it is smaller in scale than non BDSM communities but if these communities were viewed on a normal distribution with z scores the results might sway your opinion and shock you.
What many people are trying to say is: this isn’t a proper study because bias hasn’t been eliminated. A study should show both sides of the argument without implying any opinions of the researcher. A study however can come to a conclusion by reporting these figures and debating with itself. Sadly you shouldn’t quote statistics if you aren’t posting a study or report (which this isn’t), it would be contradictory to the fact that your entitled to your opinion.
I would like to say that I am a dominant woman naturally but I have a deep desire to be dominated, surprisingly my fantasy dominators don’t take on a specific gender, male or female suits me. I understand one can’t eliminate the gender card altogether but (from my observations anyway) for majority of the BDSM community it doesn’t matter. Another point on your gender issues of how BDSM is males trying to oppress and abuse women and condition them to like it. From my experience that is not true. I thought the same as this when I was younger, I thought there was lots of males on fetlife who would hit me and spank me with no consideration of my feelings. I actually found a lot of males who constantly ask me if I’m Ok? or apologise if they feel I’m uncomfortable, I have actually had to tell some of these males that what they have said is ok, they don’t need to constantly apologise (some of the stuff was commenting how beautiful I am or that they like my shape, and so on and so on). There are creeps but fetlife give you guidelines on how to avoid them and quite frankly I have felt more uncomfortable around men in non BDSM environments than BDSM. Most of the men I have encountered on fetlife are true gentlemen with the added bonus that they will have you panting in the bedroom 😛
If you are serious in pursuing to blog about the BDSM community and try and frame it like an item of fact, report or study (which you did above), learn to write without bias. You will win a lot more arguments and debates that way! It is quite simple to learn, it’s like writing an university assignment. Give an argument to back up your point, then counter argument then revert back to how yours is more logical and rational.
And if your willing to post a blog on a controversial topic and devalue someone elses lifestyle and tell them it’s wrong then you should be prepared to walk away and agree to disagree. Respect other opinions and accept that yours might not be correct but you believe in it anyway and can develop it due to your own experiences. It’s what all good researchers and report or study writers have to face.
Hope I helped and I do wish you can see my viewpoint and don’t make a generalised judgement.
Dear Renee,
I understand that you may feel that ‘controlled abuse’ has helped you, but not everything that is a coping mechanism is healthy, some people drink or take drugs or over-eat.
BDSMers write about ‘sub drop’, which suggests that BDSM is not actually psychologically healthy, and the mechanisms of ‘after care’ sound like the process of trauma bonding.
There is plenty of other evidence on this blog, most of it coming from people who are or where in the ‘community’, to suggest it has more abusers than the main stream, and that these abusers are pillars of the BDSM ‘community’ – that’s how they get away with it; to call the abusers ‘pretenders’ is a ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy, I quoted it above already – did you read the comment thread at all? Also if you had read through the comment thread properly, you would have seen that I have already said that I do not think the ‘mainstream’ is safe or good, or that no abuse occurs there (have you read anything else on this blog at all?)
Nowhere do I claim that the above post is a survey or an academic study, it is a snap-shot, that’s all. But your claims about statistics make no sense, the whole point about statistical surveys (of which the above is not one) is that they allow you to survey a small representative sample and extrapolate to the whole. Your claim about the small size of the BDSM ‘community’ warping the results does not make sense, 50% is 50%, whether the group being studied is 3 million or 3 billion strong.
Your recommendations on how to write are incredibly condescending, especially coming from someone who obviously hasn’t read anything I’ve written – the post above is a re-blog, and there is no evidence in your comments that you have actually read any of my comments in this thread, where I’ve done a lot of backing up my argument already. Also, how can I ‘walk away’ from my own blog? I’m not forcing anyone to read it, let alone leave comments.
The anorexic group you talked about. I joined to help my self harm. I had became anemic at 16. I didn’t understand why. I know why now because of them. I made friends out of that group who understand anorexia last forever. We actually talk when we need one another. Clearly you only wanted to see the bad.
Please note that the above post is a reblog, I did not join Fetlife myself.
I am genuinely curious to know why you decided to turn to a fetish site for help, and also what you get from them that you couldn’t get from a mainstream support group? Do you talk to other self-harmers, or to self-harm fetishists?
[four hours of fart noises]
[four hours of fart noises]
I can say the vast majority of women i have met in Fetlife or in the “swinger” communities have been pushed into it. Generally most of these communities have a disproportionate of people with Cluster A and B personality disorders. Which is actually quite unhealthy for them, by surround them selves with other people with a similar problems they trap them selves into there own little echo chamber of positive reinforcement it makes them unable to escape. Leading to a downward spiral of Abuse (not always physical, as excessive drug and alcohol abuse is also common in these communities)
A few days ago, I signed up to that site in hopes of hooking up. It was the worst experience of my life (actually). To all who read this, I suggest staying away from there.
I am a radfem as well and have been meaning to look at Fetlife for some time to see what actually goes on there. After reading this I’m so grateful I didn’t. What a hellscape. I imagine IPs are tracked so hopefully law enforcement can at least apprehend a few of the rapists and child molesters who are stupid enough to boast online.
For all those suggesting we spend some time getting to know people in the scene: are you nuts? Why on earth would I voluntarily put myself in a room with a man who enjoys hurting and enslaving women? Thanks no thanks. As my grandmother used to say: “When someone tells you who they are, LISTEN.”
Renee I am so sorry for what happened to you and I’m glad you’ve been able to find some peace. But anyone who gets off on watching you relive your rape trauma is not your friend.
All ‘dominant’ men in the BDSM ‘scene’ are predators and abusers. I feel no compunctions saying this, it is a truth hidden in plain sight:
https://antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/2016/01/31/more-bdsm-grossness/
In the above link, a BDSM ‘educator’ is entirely open about the ways in which he manipulates vulnerable women, says safe words are not compulsory, and calls a woman who attended a workshop advertised with “everyone is welcome to attend this workshop” a ‘spy’ and a ‘pervert’ for reporting on it negatively.
Reblogged this on Dead Wild Roses and commented:
Oh, hey there kinksters. Your progressive nature is showing…
Think what you will about the lifestyle and it’s pitfalls but your use of the ‘No True Scotsman’ argument (in response to someone saying ‘not all of us are like that’) is erroneous.
At no point does he say ‘no true kinkster’ would do such a thing. He says ‘most kinksters do not’. Just like some Scotsman are murders but most are not. All of them are still Scotsman. This isn’t being denied.
I can’t help but notice the irony in your using this argument in such a condescending manner when you clearly have a minimal grasp on what it actually means. In light of this I leave you with my very favorite casual definition of a formal term.
intellectual (noun): one who has been educated beyond their natural level of intelligence.
Dude, I used the ‘no true Scotsman’ argument in reply to someone saying they had never seen any abuse within the BDSM ‘community’, and that the examples described in the main post were not ‘representative’ of the BDSM ‘community’, ie, not ‘true’ of the BDSM ‘community’.
I also used it in response to someone calling abusers in the BDSM community ‘pretenders’, ie, not ‘real’ members of the BDSM community.
I find it ironic that you think the ‘no true Scotsman’ argument is about the number of Scotmen who are murderers.
From Wikipedia:
Notice I have never claimed that all BDSMers are abusive; I challenge the repeated claim that the BDSM ‘community’ is somehow safer and better than the heterosexual mainstream, and that the BDSM ‘community’ polices itself better than the heterosexual mainstream.
I think all BDSM is harmful to subs, who are engaging in self-harm by proxy, but I am careful, now, to say harmful rather than ‘abusive’, specifically to try to avoid getting bogged down in disingenuous nit-picking like this.
For a bit of context, these are the other comments ‘Rope Geek’ left on this blog all on the same day, I replied with the ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy to all of them:
https://antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/2013/11/14/bdsm-is-rape-culture/
https://antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/double-crap-abuse-and-harmed-identity-in-fifty-shades-of-grey/
https://antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/explain-that-safe-sane-consensual-thing-to-me-again/
I left 2 years ago after dabbling in the scene occasionally. To me, Fetlife seemed to be dominated by so called male doms whose profiles consisted of how many women they could bed, a local munch was run for the benefit of a 50 year old dom to see which naive college student he could turn into his female submissive, and the advertising became increasingly gross and seemed to consist of drugged looking women performing sex acts on men. I thought for my sanity, it was time to leave, as changes to laws on the internet could make Fetlife illegal and they were doing nothing to clean up the site.
For all I’ve had a couple of good experiences as a male sub, all through the much more tightly regulated and British run Informed Consent( which Fetlife made redundant), I’ll never rejoin Fetlife as there are too many horror stories, I found some of the members to be either scammers or disturbed, and it’s not policed well enough. Also stories of women being abused and picked up by rapists doesn’t surprise me.
So don’t practice bdsm, it’s clearly not for you.
Don’t like child rape? So don’t be a paedophile, it’s clearly not for you!
Against animal cruelty? So don’t attend a dog fight, it’s clearly not for you!
Worried about environmental degradation? So don’t become an illegal logger, it’s clearly not for you!
I know the pro-BDSMers commenting here are all self-selecting, but a large proportion of them seem to be exceptionally stupid.
A sad and inaccurate representation of both fetlife and bdsm.
You have highlighted extremes. And also concluded those extremes are universally bad or populated by unhealthy people. That is very far from reality.
I am in a 24/7 bdsm relationship with my partner and for both of us it is the most respectful, complete, happy relationship we have both ever had.
So I’m sorry, but you’re wrong and your post here is cherry picking to fit your closed mind agenda.
To sum up your post and the comments under it, you feminists want women to have free choice but you’ve decided any woman in fetlife is damaged and should not be on there.
Can you see the contradiction, or is it a case of some are more equal than others?
Absolutely amazing! Someone accuses me of ‘cherry picking’ then uses one cherry picked example (themselves), to ‘prove’ that BDSM is fine!
If ‘Jay’ is the dom/me in the relationship, of course they are having a great time, and if they are the sub, in a 24/7 situation, then their use of the internet may be controlled and they may be writing these comments under orders, so what else are they going to say?
Also, I would love to see anyone come up with a rationale for how incest, bestiality, paedophilia, watching news reports and documentaries to get off on real-life cases of rape, torture, and murder, wanting to decriminalise rape and domestic violence in the real world, boundary violations in BDSM relationships, raising girl children to be ‘fuck toys’ and handing them over to predators, and encouraging anorexia, could possibly be ‘good’ and ‘healthy’.
Feminism is about liberating women from male domination, that means liberating women legally, politically, socially, economically, and emotionally from men and male dominated institutions.
Simple minded ‘choice’ rhetoric, that ignores completely the circumstances under which those choices were made, is the realm of liberal ‘feminism’, a ‘feminism’ so watered down and useless it is not worthy of the name.
Of course lots of women ‘choose’ BDSM, the same way lots of women ‘choose’ to be surrendered wives in Christian relationships; women are sold submission from childhood, from Beauty and the Beast to Fifty Shades of Grey; add to that the general economic and social disadvantage of women, and the high rates of childhood sexual and physical and emotional abuse girls suffer from, and of course some of them will ‘choose’ to follow the path of least resistance. Of course submission feels good, of course a life with a simple set of clear rules feels safe compared to the complicated, difficult, and frightening prospect of being an independent person in an uncertain world.
To all the BDSMers who are visiting this page right now: can a single one of you actually answer any of the specific points I’ve made in this comment thread? Because the small number of you who are leaving comments are making all of you look very very stupid.
I’ve no interest in refuting your points. I’m not a feminist and as a male, flat out refuse to be your ally. What I can say is that anyone I’ve met in the scene is there of their own free will, yes this includes the women.
No guy wants to cop a rape accusation, much less a charge. Are there weird groups on fetlife? Sure, but isn’t weird relative? I mean just 3 years ago Bruce Jenner was just a crazy aging Olympian. Now he’s a nutless eunuch in drag.
So I mean what I said- it’s not for you. You went “undercover” on fetlife. Oh, how fucking original, you brave, intrepid twat. What’s your goal? To ban certain sex acts and lifestyles? Good luck with that, honey.
If you had a brain in that bucket, you’d instead I don’t know, advocate for safety, as many of us do. You’d maybe work with us in advising women on how to better advocate for themselves and play safely. BDSM is not abuse, but like any relationship it has the potential to be abusive.
As it’s not going away, maybe be part of the solution.
What an absurd website this is, for people who’s political agenda overrides normal cognitive abilities, who have no sense of objectivity and who are incapable of understanding that the absence of the whole truth constitutes fiction.
@antiplondon: Your post lacks even the most minimal level of critical thinking.
Children and animals don’t have a choice. There is no consent.
Anything involving sex or BDSM which isn’t consensual is either rape or assault, which is not what’s being discussed here.
Does your claim of ‘stupidity’ apply equally to those who say ‘if you don’t like abortion, don’t have one?’ I believe it does.
With Men like ‘Happy Harry Hard On’, it is always important to look closely at what they are saying about themselves.
He is a misogynist, with the use of a sexed slur like ‘twat’, the anti-feminism, and the tacit admission that women’s liberation runs counter to his interests as a man.
He doesn’t actually care about committing violence against women, he only cares about getting caught, which fits in with the above-mentioned groups on fetlife, who think women shouldn’t have legal human rights.
He thinks men getting off on the real-life rape, torture, murder and mutilation of women and girls is merely ‘weird’, as in ‘no big deal’.
He was too lazy and/or stupid and/or arrogant to actually bother reading the original post or the comment thread underneath it before leaving his own comment, because he hasn’t noticed that the original post is a reblog, and I am not The Sixth Siren, and he hasn’t noticed that twice already on this thread I have said that I do not think BDSMers should be rounded up into re-education camps ‘for their own good’.
As for the claims about ‘being part of the solution’, I would take that kind of thing more seriously if it wasn’t coming from someone denying that there is a serious problem in the first place – and notice the blatant victim blaming here, abuse happens because women don’t speak up loudly enough to stop themselves from being raped, not because predatory men take advantage of a system designed to hand vulnerable women over to abusers, while the rest of the so-called ‘community’ turns a blind-eye and spends a lot of energy telling critics to shut up.
Women’s involvement in the BDSM ‘community’ is not inevitable, and I am certainly not going to lie to women and tell them it’s safe. When the mainstream media is pushing BDSM as sexy and fun, I have every right to provide a dissenting voice.
I would take claims coming from BDSM men to be advocating for safety more seriously if I actually saw them doing anything about abusers in their community, beyond dismissing them as ‘rotten apples’ and not ‘true’ BDSMers.
Take this guy a BDSM ‘educator’ at mainstream sex expos; I have linked to that post several times already, here and on tumblr, and not a single BDSMer is prepared to criticise his creepy, predatory behaviour.
An in house survey by ‘The National Coalition of Sexual Freedom’ found very high rates of boundary violation, but BDSMers still insist there are no systematic problems.
And take poor old Kitty Stryker, she’s been talking about this since 2012. She’s put an anthology together on ‘consent culture’, but how much influence does she really have, outside of academic/’queer’ circles that already agree with her (not that ‘queer’ spaces are actually safe for women)
When her book tour is limited to five independent book shops in three ‘progressive’ states, how much of an audience is that really? A hundred a go, max, if we are being generous? She may generate click-bait-y headlines on lefty/liberal websites that aren’t going to do any actual in-depth investigations into the subject, but how much influence does that really translate into?
If BDSMers were really interested in change, rather than shutting critics up, wouldn’t Stryker be inundated with support? Wouldn’t she have more than 139 supporters on Patreon (compare that to Jordan B Peterson’s 9,715 supporters, or Laurie Penny’s 625)?
Or take this recent tweet from Stryker:
Only 3 retweets, that doesn’t say ‘influence’ to me.
EDIT 22/May/18: I should clarify that I think Stryker is a phoney and her ‘activism’ is shit: see here, for her anodyne response to allegations of sexual assault made against a ‘feminist’ pornographer, and here and here, where she advocates in favour of violence against women who refuse to suck cock.
lkjhlhj,
“Anything involving sex or BDSM which isn’t consensual is either rape or assault, which is not what’s being discussed here.”
Well it is what’s being discussed here; the original post discusses fetlife members getting off on real-life violence against women and girls, fantasising about removing all women’s legal rights, and discussing raising their daughters to be under-age ‘fucktoys’. It also describes female subs talking about having their boundaries violated.
You are just the latest in a long line of BDSMers to come here and say there is no problem here, which confirms my general disbelieve that the BDSM ‘community’ is actually interested in putting its house in order.
“Does your claim of ‘stupidity’ apply equally to those who say ‘if you don’t like abortion, don’t have one?’ I believe it does.”
The if you don’t like x don’t do x argument is a poor argument regardless of whether I happen to approve of ‘x’ or not; it’s fine when arguing over ice-cream flavours, but it has no place in grown-up political discussion.
Reducing women’s reproductive rights to individual choices isn’t actually helpful either. Any individual woman can, alone, in isolation, ‘choose’ to take a wire coat-hanger and perform an abortion on herself, but providing safe, legal, medical abortion requires collective, political action; not just law changes, but also trained doctors and nurses, accessible, well-funded clinics, and drugs and medical equipment manufactured to a recognised standard.
Here’s another example of a BDSMer not wanting to get in trouble with the law, rather than caring about the abuse of a 13-year-old girl.
Also notice the anti feminism – it’s almost like there’s a pattern here …
Here’s another one from tumblr:
BDSMers getting off on the real-life rape, torture, and murder of a teenage girl.
Or how about this from Feminist Current:
Another shining example of a BDSM ‘educator’.
At some point, when men keep telling us, over and over again, how much they hate us and how much they want to hurt us, we are going to believe it.
BDSM is not about Rape! This is your opinion by joining Fetlife! Fetlife is a joke! If you truly knew anything as bout BDSM, you would know it is about Communication, Trust, and Consent! You should do your research!!
Reblogged this on 50shadesofharm.
I cannot believe how stupid and lazy the people who comment on this post are; too stupid to realise that I am not The Sixth Siren and that the original post is a re-blog of someone else’s work; too lazy to read through the comment thread to see that I have actually addressed all their points already, twice; too stupid to understand the No True Scotsman fallacy, and so stupid they think that isn’t real BDSM! is a convincing argument, when they are the umpteenth person to make it.
Here’s a few more things I found on tumblr recently:
And while I’m here, I may as well add this ‘bdsm problem’ I blogged about back in 2013:
https://antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/there-is-a-bdsm-problems-tumblr/
A bdsm-er boasting about getting off on real world abuse, abuse so extreme it had other people in the class gasping with horror.
Since you got a lot of backslash for this, I’d like to mention that most replies so far have simply succeeded in supporting your point. So much denial and inability to take criticism.
Thank you.
I used to think BDSM was somewhat liberating, fun and empowering – even though I never had sex, lol – but thankfully I came across radical feminism and learned everything I needed to know about being careful on my relationships, taking care of myself and letting go of toxic notions such as “I deserve to be punished and controlled”. I feel like I’m finally being authentic to myself. Thanks for creating this blog. You’re doing an amazing job!
Thank you for your message, I am so happy for you!
I was glad to leave that nasty website forever 2 years ago. It was just descending into hardcore pornography, it was full of male ” doms” whose only interest was exploiting naive young women for sex, and some people were seriously disturbed. i think the main problem is the men who call themselves doms on there, the femdoms are far more honest, all these men seem to want is to exploit women under the guise of BDSM. Also the more extreme BDSM is dangerous and people have been killed.
All male doms are predators, I say that with absolute conviction.
Male doms and female dommes are two different things; women in BDSM, regardless of their role, are still doing what men want, because the BDSM ‘scene’ is a continuation of the male-dominated mainstream.
BDSM is not just a community or a subculture. It also describes any kind of kinky or sadomasochistic sexual behaviour between consenting adults.
I am against pornography. I am also opposed to prostitution. What I don’t agree with is policing what consenting adults do in their bedroom.
I think a critique of BDSM is fine. I do know there are abusers out there and should be called out.
However a woman who enjoys a bit of spanking and bondage in her sex life is not being abused. It is patronising and silly to think so. You may not understand how some people can get aroused by pain but that’s because you aren’t a masochist. Some people are and it’s none of your business what they do in their private life.
Consent is a very powerful thing. You cannot consent to rape, that is one of the definitions of rape.
Women should be allowed to partake in consensual sexual activities without being made to feel guilty. Just because you find it uncomfortable, doesn’t make it wrong.
Yes women choose BDSM. Have you ever thought it is simply because it turns them on and they enjoy it? I think they probably feel guilty enough about what turns them on without you adding to it even more.
If you had bothered to read this thread before leaving your comment, you would have seen that I have said, repeatedly, that I don’t think BDSMers should be rounded up into re-education camps ‘for their own good’.
While BDSM is being pushed, repeatedly, in the mainstream as ‘safe’, ‘fun’, ‘sexy’, and even ‘healthy’, I have every right to offer a critical, dissenting voice.
To talk about ‘choice’ and ‘consent’ as if these things exist in a vacuum, with no influencing factors, is inadequate; women are under all kinds of influences and pressures, and to blithely assume that all consent is freely given (with no negative consequences for saying ‘no’), is naive to say the least.
I presume, when you say you are again against pornography and prostitution, that you understand coercion exists, and that it exists as more than a literal gun to the head or knife to the throat? In which case why do you assume that patriarchal control is only limited to the commercial sex industry? Why do you assume that the factors that push women into the sex industry (poverty, childhood sex abuse, lack of self-worth), aren’t also in play in the ‘private’ sexual choices a woman makes?
I do understand how masochism works, the brain releases endorphins (an opioid) as an emergency response to violent situations, these endorphins are addictive (the phenomenon of ‘sub-drop’ is testament to that). Do you draw a line? “a bit of spanking and bondage” is fine with you, but what about the more extreme stuff, the women being literally tortured? Don’t they enjoy it (in your opinion)? Don’t they have the right (in your opinion) to ‘choose’ extreme, dangerous, potentially injurious or even deadly sex acts, if it gets them off? Is a woman willing to risk injury or even death for the sake of getting off making a free and consenting choice? Is a woman in the middle of a BDSM ‘scene’, having a flash-back to childhood sex abuse, or in too much pain to speak, making a free and consenting choice at that moment?
People choose to do all types of things to themselves that are harmful (you haven’t noticed that I use the term ‘harmful’ rather than ‘abusive’ in most of my comments); adults have the ‘right’ to self-harm, but that doesn’t mean I should keep quiet about it, especially when there are so many predatory men out there waiting to take advantage of someone vulnerable (anyone who thinks they want, or ‘deserve’ to be hurt or humiliated, is vulnerable).
I don’t want women to feel ‘guilty’ (where have I even implied they should feel guilty?), I want them to think critically.
I was staying in a hotel in York last week and opposite was a so called gentlemen’s club. This was some overpriced lap dancing and strip dive that was very inappropriate next to a family hotel and had the usual drunken idiots hanging around outside. I’m not criticising the women who work there, as they have their own reasons for wanting to work in this place, just it creatred a seedy, nasty environment that wasn’t called for.
Not really the best post to put this under, but thank you anyway.
I have to respond to this and take it out of the tailspin the discussion is in.
BDSM
Bondage/Discipline, Domination/Submission, Sadism/Masochism
Now let’s use words that would be used in a courtroom protecting a victims human rights.
Bondage = Unlawful Confinement
Discipline = Punishment for self expression and failure to comply with the demands of the abuser
Domination = One party with a psychological or physical advantage forcing someone to do something against their will
Submission = Someone whose psychological or physical weaknesses are being exploited caving and giving in to an option which is less painful than fughting back, but still painful
Sadism = Sick “pleasure” derived from inflicting pain
Masochism = Someone who has been a victim of trauma and who is subconsciously re-enacting that trauma.
So there we go. No need to dig through fetlife to find it.
As far as the feminism goes here, I will admit that I am male. I just found this while looking online after having had the epiphany that BDSM is the normalisation of abuse.
I have been the victim of abuse. And I have in the past partaken in BDSM and thus continued to damage myself.
Here are words used to normalise abuse by my psychopathic ex and their “BDSM” counterparts.
“It’s not that bad.” = “Oh, I just partake in mild BDSM”
(minimization and invalidation)
“Everyone does it.” = “It’s common in the community.”
(normalisation)
“You’re mistaken for calling me out for being abusive.” = “You don’t understand BDSM.”
(gaslighting and firestarting)
“I am ending the relationship if you won’t do as I say.” = “He can consent to what I want to do, or the scene ends.”
(emotional blackmail)
“Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it. Are you OK?” = “Aftercare.”
(pretending to care)
“Oh, I’m sorry you see it that way.” = “You don’t understand BDSM.”
(victim blaming)
“It’s complicated.” = “BDSM is complex and you don’t understand.”
(avoidance of discussing issues)
Anyway, I finally addressed my childhood trauma by writing it all down and how I felt and how it affected me. Spent a lot of time being mindful of how I was feeling. It turns out if you’re mindful in “scene” you see it for what it is.
And then there’s the aha moment.
Hang on a sec, the dude who raped me as a kid convinced me it was what I wanted and that it was a good thing. Definitely totally not ok! Children can’t consent!
BDSM practitioners try to convince you that it’s ok as long as consent is provided. But mentally ill people can’t consent!
Conclusion – BDSM = Abuse
Same shit different pile.
And I wish I would have stayed out of the BDSM thing because, well, getting raped over and over and over can get “mentally exhausting” as I jokingly put it. But seriously, I had no soul left by the end of all this.
And that moment you tried so hard to break the abusive cycle and turned to BDSM thinking it was better because everyone says it is…facepalm.
So much to regret. So much suffering.
I do have to disagree with some of the feminist thing though. Being a male victim of horrendous sexual abuse and realising that there is NOWHERE to go to get help for abused men – at least not in my area – no mens shelter, no mens abuse counselling, makes me have to point out that there are some ways our society is failing men more than women.
Also, if men could talk about their feelings and were allowed to cry and ask for help, they would probably be less likely to turn into shady abusers.
It’s late, I could go on. But I’m tired and feel my work here is done.
Thank you for sharing your experiences with the (gay male) BDSM scene, and confirming that ‘safe, sane, and consensual’ is just a cover-up for abuse (your comment went into the spam folder, so I have only just seen it). I am sorry you had to go through all that, and I am sorry you have not been able to find support.
No radical feminist says that men are never abused; it’s not a coincidence that you were abused by men, or that your abuse started in childhood (children are a vulnerable group); adult men are the abuser class.
The only reason women have any services/resources at all is because women fought for them; the first battered women’s shelter in the UK was in the 70’s, in a squat with no electricity or running water.
Radical feminists are against ‘gender’, the sex-role stereotypes that stop men being able to talk about their feelings etc. No feminist is reinforcing masculinity. And I seriously doubt that not being able to cry turns men into abusers; abusive men are very good at playing the victim when it benefits them (see, anything by Lundy Bancroft)
I find this article hilarious a radfem trying to be sympathetic to rape victims when radfems certainly love to condone female predators and the rapists within their own cult mentality
Its sick and wrong
Have a horrid evening
-a female victim of women like you-
What on Earth are you even talking about?
Do you even know what ‘radical feminist’ means?
I’ve been on Fetlife and active in the scene for almost a year. I haven’t seen ANY of these groups or behaviors you discuss, although I will agree Fetlife is a cesspool and I mostly only use it to find events.
Seriously, though, I’ve NEVER seen the group’s you describe, which begs the questions:
How did YOU find them? What we’re YOU looking for?
Spend more time looking in the mirror. You’re clearly hiding something from yourself.
Good luck!
And if you don’t like it, stay the fuck away! No one made you open a FetLife account.
For the nth time in this thread, I am not The Sixth Siren, I reblogged a post from her, and I reblogged it in good faith.
She did go on Fetlife specifically as an experiment, she was entirely open about this, that it was a snap-shot of the ‘worst’ elements of the BDSM ‘scene’ she encountered, rather than a comprehensive, systematic survey of the whole website.
You agree that Fetlife is a “cesspool”, and that you hardly use it, so you really have no argument here, just a whinge and a poor attempt at a gotcha!; do you think people who research rape or child abuse are really ~hiding something from themselves~?
This is the daftest form of attack from BDSMers, their fetishization of rape and violence is entirely harmless and healthy, but anti-BDSMers pointing out that BDSM is fetishization of rape and violence (ie accurately reporting what BDSM is)? We, somehow, are the real problem!
You’ve only been in the scene a year, I hope you stay safe, because it is full of predators (see any of the other popular anti-BDSM posts on this blog).
The above is actually an extract from the original post; obviously nobody has bothered to click through and read the whole thing, so here are the introductory paragraphs:
For us “normal” people who relish the bdsm lifestyle without going into the very extreme behaviour you have outlined, you are obviously anti the lifestyle and have only depicted the extreme which is unfair and misleading to readers.
As I have said already, while BDSM is being portrayed by the mainstream media as ‘fun’, ‘safe’, and even ‘healthy’, I have every right to offer a dissenting voice.
What on earth does “unfair and misleading” mean? Who, already in the BDSM ‘lifestyle’, is using this blog as their only source of information? Why do you think it is my job to propagandise in favour of BDSM?
As a ‘normal’ BDSMer, are you aware of the death of Natalie Connolly? Her partner John Broadhurst, in a jealous, drug-fuelled rage, beat her unconscious, leaving her with a ‘blowout’ fracture to her eye socket, and suffering from “severe blood loss from deep cuts to her vaginal area.” He left her to bleed to death overnight. The Crown Prosecution Service decided that, because they were in a sado-masochistic relationship, it was safer to go with a charge of manslaughter, rather than murder.
This is what I want ‘sub’ women to understand, sadistic men really do hate you and really do want to hurt you, and if they seriously injure you or kill you, your masochism will be used against you, in his favour.
BDSM is not abusive, people who use it for the wrong reasons are. BDSM is all about CONSENT which is nowhere to be found in abuse nor rape culture. Consent is the distinguisher. Abuse and rape are about power and control. In BDSM, the sub is the one with the control. So just by those standards alone, it negates your theory. I understand you found it personally disturbing, however, you cannot paint with such a broad brush only off of your experiences. That’s the very foundation of bias. What you can say, however, is that fetish sites allow too much and should draw the line when nonconsensual activities are discussed.
The idea that subs are the ones in control is laughable when male doms are entirely open about the psychological ‘mind control’ techniques they use to manipulate and control their (female) subs, and when male doms are entirely open about their predatory behaviour.
Was Natalie Connolly in control when John Broadhurst kicked her eye out, lacerated her vagina and left her to bleed to death on the floor? Was Kim Wall in control when Peter Madsen murdered her? And spare me the ‘no true Scotsman’ arguments, the only difference between Broadhurst and Madsen and your average dom is one of degree, not kind.
And for goodness sake, I know all the pro-BDSMers leaving their comments here are a self-selecting sample, but when is one of you going to come up with an original argument? When is one of you going to actually read the original post properly and understand that I am not the Sixth Siren and it is a reblog? When is one of you actually going to reply to anything I have said in the comment thread?
I’ve been on Fetlife for over 10 years and have never seen content like this. I am not saying it doesn’t exist, but you probably have to look for it and it will make up the vast minority of content on the entire site. As with any interactive website with many many thousands active users, you will find stuff that is unsavory. Did you report any of the comments or users? If no one reports it, the site admins can’t act. Groups are generally run by people on a voluntary basis so may not be able to vet every single comment left in their group(s).
There’s a major difference for many people in what turns them on in their head and what they end up wanting/doing in real life. Many people will just talk about ideas that turn them on but aren’t active in real life or would never act out those kinds of fantasies that are clearly illegal.
With regards to female subs and their boundaries repeatedly being trampled on: These women are clearly not suitable to be in a BDSM relationship. You need to know yourself and be a confident person with self respect before you can be in such a relationship. If you stay with someone who repeatedly ignores your hard limits, that person is an abuser but it’s also on you to remove yourself from that person. There is personal responsibility here; you have to look out for yourself (that applies to anyone, male, female, or other).
Most of the kink community are nice people who are having a good time exploring their sexuality with like-minded people. Just like outside of the kink community, you will find abusers. That doesn’t make the kink community a rotten place, just that you should be mature enough to know what is healthy and not healthy and look out for your interest, but that applies to life in general.
I am sure you can find conversations like this on other forums and in other communities. That doesn’t make those inherently abuse places either.
I was going to delete this comment for not realising the I am not The Sixth Siren (even after I added a note to the top of the blog post – what is it with BDSMers and reading comprehension skills?), but I’m leaving it up for the appalling victim-blaming.
This post encapsulates how a ‘community’ can allow abuse to flourish – I thought subs were supposed to be the ones in charge? I thought ‘respecting boundaries’ and ‘safe, sane, consensual’ were supposed to be at the centre of the BDSM ‘community’? I thought the BDSM ‘community’ was supposed to police itself and kick out abusers?
Now we are being told that it’s all ‘buyer beware’, and abused women are responsible for their own abuse by not leaving their abuser – because there are no risks involved with leaving an abusive man, because it’s not the case that the most dangerous time for an abused woman, the time when she is most likely to be murdered, is when she leaves her abuser.
All I have to say is thank you and that I wish I had read this many years ago rather than after getting involved with this shit. That website, and those who use it, broke me. This just showed me why.
Hello, I am so sorry you had to go through something like that. I hope you are safe now, and that you have people in your life to support you.
I just saw this on the blog of someone who started following me on tumblr today (I blocked them).
Why do so many women keep insisting that BDSM is ‘safe, sane, consensual’, when men keep telling us over and over again that they hate women, enjoy our suffering, and want our bodies to be damaged?
I was on fl since collarme was taken down…pedophilia is a thing with most men on there..theres one guy who calls his “girlfriends” his daughter’s. He likes single mothers too. Another man on there who donates money to it definitely showed me his pedo interests and he has a 5 year old daughter. I told him I wasnt sub or into any of that..He was abusive calling me names narcisistic bully, had me arrested claiming false charges, lying about everything to the cops. I spent 5 months in jail, lost my car my dog and everything i owned. The charges were dropped bc he lied about everything..but he still ruined my life. The legal system is just as sexist. When I first met him he said he wanted his next ltr to be with a man. He clearly hates women. Hes disgusting with stds. I was cleaning his house everyday laundry everyday ect ect ect..I wish I would have left sooner. The few months free rent wasnt worth it.