do you ever notice how like.. what was considered anti-feminist beliefs a couple years ago is considered feminist now. i saw a post today that was like “there is no such thing as socialization, everyone is raised and treated and taught the same and chooses what applies to them” and it has like 50k notes and is considered “intersectional feminism” when like that exact thing is just a classic anti-feminist argument. There’s really an endless amount of examples of anti-feminism being pushed as feminism. I mean mainstream feminism is very little more than taking anti-feminism and sprinkling a bit of feminist buzzwords on it. I feel like there is really no hope for feminism anymore since actual feminism (as in a movement against patriarchy, rather than a movement in favor of patriarchy with just a slight twist that it is today) has been taken over and destroyed. It all just feels so hopeless. It would be better if feminism was just a very small group of women who are actually against patriarchy, rather than the misogynist pile of crap that it is today.
Trans people: “the concept of socialization is bullshit, stop”
You: “what kind of anti-feminist shit????”
If we were all socialised the same we wouldn’t need feminism… men and women would be treated the same, and viewed as equal. Lying and saying it’s not true allows women to be negatively socialised without consequence.
*socialization* is not responsible for social inequality, and in fact its quite the opposite, NO ONE is *socialized* the same, making this shitty concept useless
socialization is a well documented thing, men and women are treated differently, they are raised differently, they are seen differently, and they act differently as a result. Sex and race socialization are actual things, we are not wired to act differently, to have different interests, to think differently, to feel differently. Men don’t oppress women because they are biologically wired to do so. Whites are not biologically wired to think of themselves of superior and oppress non-white people. It literally makes no sense to pretend that socialization doesn’t exist, it only serves to protect white supremacist patriarchy by denying it’s existence.
except it doesnt work the way transphobes want it to
yall want to think men are raised like Y and women like X and that trans people must fall under either X or Y regardless of their gender
this binarist way of thinking is ridiculous
men are raised one way and women are raised another. this is just a simple fact. A trans person who is of the male sex would have been raised and socialized as a male until they transitioned, a trans person who is of the female sex would have been raised and socialized as female until they transitioned. An intersex person would have been raised and socialized as the sex they were assigned. Socialization has nothing to do with how you feel on the inside or how you personally identify it has to do with how other people see & treat you. Socialization isn’t a conscious thing that you either accept or reject either, socialization is subtle and effects you without you being aware of it, especially if you are male (or white), you just assume the way you are treated is normal, because you’ve been socialized to not empathize or acknowledge the mistreatment of those you oppress. You can’t just say “oh thats a binarist way of thinking” when society is binarist and socialization i enforced by society. like what is the point of denying reality other than to protect an oppressive society and continue sex/race oppression
again: this binarist way of thinking is ridiculous and is exactly why people wont take your concept of socialization seriously
people are raised in many different ways, if socialization worked like you want it to, everyone would have one of two personalities, but that isnt the case, women are raised in many different ways, men are raised in many different ways, intersex people are raised in many different ways, trans people are raised in many different ways
jesus christ we are not talking about individual personalities. If you go your way then you can’t say anyone is privileged or oppressed either, because no one has 100% the same experiences. I mean you either accept socialized behavior or you think that behavior is biological, or that every single person on earth is an individual who has no effect on anyone else and is not effected by anyone else, and therefor any acts of violence against them is just an individual act that has nothing to do with anything. I mean you either think oppression and oppressors exist or you think male violence and white supremacy are innate, or you think they don’t exist and all cases of male/white supremacist violence are invididual cases that has nothing to do with society or other people in that class. honestly please develop some class analyst, this conversation is pointless and a waste of time if you refuse to acknowledge that oppression exists and that classes of people have shared experiences and shared traits that are enforced on to them.
Just so happens that I dont need a faulty binarist concept of socialization for the concept of privilege to exist
“we arent talking individuals” no you are throwing all women in one category and all men in another and trans/intersex people into either
women are a class of people, men are a class of people, class analysis requires acknowledgement of people as a class, talking about oppression and privilege also requires acknowledgement of classes of people. You literally cannot talk about things like male violence without acknowledging socialization, or of women as a class of people, or else it just becomes one individual man being violent against an individual woman for no reason that isn’t connected to other acts of violence committed by other individual men against other individual women because everyone is an individual uneffected by anything.
how does oppression even work if not with socialization? why are men violent? why are whites violent? what puts men in to the category of oppressor? what makes all white people racist? what makes men oppress women? what makes white people oppress non-white people? what makes boys misogynists? what makes white kids racists? why is femininity pushed on girls? why do boys think they are superior to girls? why do whites think they are superior to non-white people? why do boys have higher confidence than girls? why do white kids have higher confidence? why do boys speak more in school than girls?why do whites speak more in school? why is the speech pattern different for girls and boys? why are girls far more concerned with appearance than boys? why do non-white children think whites are more attractive than them? why don’t girls have the same rates of violence as boys? If girls & boys, white people & non-white people are all treated the same and socialization doesn’t exist, then how do you explain socializaed behavior? how do you explain oppressor classes? if everyone is an individual unaffected by society then how do you have oppressed classes? privileged classes? why are girls oppressed from birth and trained in to compliance? why are boys, no matter how equally they are raised by their parents, still misogynists before they even start school? how can you explain class behavior without socialization? how can you pretend that raising girls & boys differently has no effect on them?
I am done with this conversation, just things for you to think about.
except, you know, not once dis I say the problem is based on individuals, but rather that your concept of socialization is flawed, very flawed
Why? Because you keep looking at it in a binary way, as if all men were raised the same and all women raised the same and people who arent either must also be raised in one of those two ways
You asked me questions, I ask you questions: why are so many cis women transphobes? Why are there cis women who want to fight transphobia? Why are there women who are against feminism? Why are there white people who acknowledged their privileged and want to fight racism when there are many more who deny their privileged and uphold racism?
Why are there men who support feminism when most are against it?
heres the gist of it: priviledged isnt tied to *socialization*, regardless of how a white kid was raised they are white, regardless of how a cis man was raised he is still a cis man, but what they do with that privilege, is up to the individual
then comes trans people, by your logic they are socialized as either male or female, as if thats how trans people felt like lmao, as if we perfectly fit the label of cis man/woman until the day we start transitioning
well, yeah? how would anyone know a baby was going to be trans in the future to treat them as trans as a baby rather than as their sex? like wtf are you even saying?
also like lol you didn’t answer a single one of my questions (for obvious reasons, you know the answers). But Ill answer your questions, we are all socialized to reject gender non-conformity, because gender conformity is key to keeping women compliant as the oppressed class and men as the violent oppressor class, the oppression of gender non-conforming people is directly tied to patriarchal socialization.
Women, again, are socialized against each other, in order to remain compliant, in order to be easily dominated we must be kept from uniting together, sharing our experiences, realizing our shared oppression, how does anti-feminist go against patriarchal socialization? it’s right in line with it. To become feminists women go through a massive amount of learning and unlearning of our socialization.
I’ve never met a white person or a man who wasn’t in some way a racist or a misogynist, and this definitely includes “anti-racist” whites and “pro-feminist” men. Let’s just pretend that these anti-racist whites & pro-feminist men are 100% totally not misogynists or racists, they had to unlearn their racism & misogyny to get to that point. Because of socialization racism/misogyny IS their default, and they have to unlearn it. Having privilege IS A FORM OF SOCIALIZATION. You literally cannot think privilege exists if you don’t think socialization exists, they are inseparable concepts! Male privilege for example, being taught as a baby boy that you are better, smarter, stronger, more deserving, etc etc, is a form of socialization that effects who you are as a person, the way you think, the way you act, the way you see the world, the privilege of being unaware of the oppression girls face is a form of socialization, you are socialized to ignore the plight of women! PRIVILEGE IS A SOCIALIZATION! I really don’t know how many other ways this can be said for you to understand.
If your way of thinking was correct than by default men would be feminists & whites would be anti-racists and there would be no reason for them to be put in oppressor classes, they would simply be white/male and that wouldn’t mean anything in terms of oppression or privilege. If there was no socialization then there would be no privilege or oppressed classes, just a few individuals who are racist or misogynist, there would be no social power behind it, or an entire system.
Pomeranian Privilege, who deserves a medal for tackling this genderist bullshit!