What’s Wrong With Pornography

EDIT: Hello to any one visiting this page from CiF, where someone left a comment claiming Anti-Porn Feminists was a ‘pro-censorship’ group. I would like to direct you to the several comments on this thread already where I have addressed this issue, and said that attempts to ‘censor’ porn are an ineffectual way of challenging patriarchy and porn’s contribution to rape culture.

I even quoted Laurie Penny on the subject here, even though I can’t stand her brand of liberal fun feminism.

EDIT: Hello to those visiting from Kitty Stryker’s article at huffingtonpost (and other sites); you may be more interested in this much more recent post here, where Kitty and I actually discuss some of the things she’s writing about.

 

Pornography harms women.

Pornography is not fantasy. Pornography happens in the real world, to real women; everything you see in pornography happened somewhere to a real woman.

The pornography industry is a multi-billion dollar global industry.

Pornography exists to make money. It is an industry that chews women up and spits them out; it is an industry where exposure to violence, harassment, injury and infection are seen as normal and acceptable.

Pornography doesn’t expand our sexuality – it stunts it.

Mainstream heterosexual pornography dictates a narrow and limited idea of human sexuality. In pornography, male sexuality is predicated on cruelty, coercion and degradation; female sexuality is predicated on submitting to or appearing to enjoy being subjected to cruel, coercive and degrading treatment. Pornography eradicates women’s sexual agency, and makes it harder for women to find out about their own bodies and their own sexuality.

Pornography portrays sexual violence against women as normal, natural and an inevitable part of male sexuality.

Sexual desire does not develop in a vacuum. The prurient attitude we have to sex in this country, combined with a lack of decent sex education, means that many people use pornography as their primary source of information on what sex is supposed to be like. Mainstream heterosexual pornography tells men that the sexual abuse of women is exciting, and that women enjoy being abused. It tells women that in order to do sex properly, they have to put up with and enjoy such abuse.

Pornography reinforces male supremacy, and the idea that men are entitled to sexual access to women’s bodies.

Men define themselves as being whatever is not a woman, in order to be a man it is necessary for there to be a subordinate group of women for men to compare themselves to and feel superior to. In mainstream heterosexual pornography men are always the active agents and women are always the passive objects. No man in pornography ever fails to get what he wants; the women in pornography exist solely to satisfy men’s desires, they have no will or desire of their own except to service men’s needs.

Pornography portrays sex and women as disgusting.

The words used to describe women and women’s bodies in pornography betray the fact that women and sex are seen as dirty and disgusting by the men who use it: ‘bitch’ ‘cunt’ ‘slut’ ‘fuck toy’ ‘fuck hole’ ‘dirty’ ‘filthy’ etc etc.

Pornography promotes misogynistic beauty standards.

In mainstream heterosexual pornography women are interchangeable, it trains women and men to see a natural female body – one with pubic hair, or small breasts, or any fat – as unnatural and disgusting.

Pornography affects you.

Even if you are not a pornography consumer, a significant number of the men you interact with every day will be. It’s difficult to imagine that a man can spend a lot of time viewing and masturbating to degrading images of women without that pornographic ideology having a negative effect on his view of women.

Pornography and sex are not the same thing!
Pro-sex, Anti-porn: Free your sexuality from pornography

249 responses

  1. Pro-sex, Anti-porn: Free your sexuality from pornography

    Well-said! I feel a lot more free without having patriarchal and capitalist images controlling me.

    p.s. Great blog! I just linked you…

  2. Cool, thanks. I can see we’re getting traffic through already!

  3. I’m a man but I’m pro-feminist and anti-porn, and I must say, I’m really happy to have found a blog on this topic. It’s great to see that people are organising against porn. If I didn’t live in France I’d be delighted to join your demonstrations !
    It’s probably the same in the UK as over here : if you speak to people about the matter, they think you’re asexual or some sort of religious fundamentalist. It just shows you how far things have gone. “If you don’t like porn, you don’t like sex”… That’s what people seem to think. That’s why I like your “Pro-sex anti-porn” catchphrase.
    People don’t realise that porn is sexist, alienating and deeply patriarcal. It’s not liberating : it’s anti-libertarian in its very nature. But porn has pervaded culture to such an extent that people don’t realise it anymore. We live in a porn culture. Not only are women’s bodies used to sell everything from soap to cars (or even yoghurts here in France), but porn has found a mainstream acceptance : it’s referenced constantly in TV shows. (I just heard “MILF” in a Scrubs’ show last night : one of the most patriarcal acronyms out there?)
    And that suits business very well – it goes hand in hand with the capitalist structure. “As long as it sells, who cares who/what is hurt, degraded, exploited ?”
    Another thing I can’t understand : how can men prefer cyber onanism, this getting off watching acts of this new slavery in front of a cold computer screen, to the closeness, intimacy and warmth of another human being ?
    Anyway I’m rambling here… And all I initially set out to say was : “Bravo!” Great work, and I wish you all the best in your struggle! =)

  4. Thank you for the words of encouragement!

  5. guys like Gallic Hibernian brighten my days up :-)
    I recently purchased a book that I think other people that think about these issues might like too; ´transforming a rape culture´. it is a collection of different articles written on the rape culture (porn is one of its features).

    I feel that everyone who feels like this should make their message known to the world in a direct and confronting way, otherwise how will we ever change this culture? it will never change if we keep silence.
    I found a site were you could buy antiporn t-shirts,(http://www.oneangrygirl.net/) but I didn´t like these much so I found a site were you could put your own messages on shirts. I for example created this line ´dead hearts need porn to become aroused´.

    becuase the ones with the porn-watcher and rapist mentality, if they accidentaly land on a blog like this or other blogs about this, I don´t think they´ll read it or try to comprehend it. since they´re always trying to justify what they´re doing.
    if you wear a t-shirt on the street with a text like that, maybe it will actually make them think…I hope.

    viva la revolucion! :-)

  6. I cannot tell you how much this blog has helped me. For years I had people making me believe that I was not a true feminist because I am anti-porn. I am deeply bothered by porn and feel that it is more degrading than it is empowering. After dealing with multiple, porn-obsessed partners, I became extremely self-conscious of my body, developing body dysmorphic disorder and lived a very lonely existence for a long time. I was ashamed of myself, believing that I was unworthy of any kind of attention since I did not fit the stereotype. This bothered me, I felt that I was not being true to my feminist beliefs, to myself and just failing in general. This blog really helped me to see that I am not the only feminist out there who is anti-porn and that I am not letting down anybody by being so.

  7. I want to say that I am very glad for what you are doing. This is very important work.
    It is frustrating to me that close to nobody I know – and most of my friends are activists – seems to be able to recognize pornography as oppression and brave enough to name it as such. The fact that so many of my fellow leftist men can’t or won’t extend their own criticisms of commodification/exploitation to the products that they masturbate over is endlessly sad. I must keep believing, though, that minds can be reached and I thank you for your efforts.
    “Free your sexuality from pornography!” That is perfect. I’d like to put it on a T-shirt.

  8. Hello Travis, and thank you for the words of support. If you do get round to making a t-shirt, please send us a pic to put up!

  9. Ms Debbonaire

    Hi and thanks for all the hard work and thoughtfulness on this site from everyone who is contributing. I just wanted to add a couple of things to the “what’s wrong with pornography” section, not so much new as emphasising some of what is already there.

    The conditions in which pornography is created hurt women and rely on women who have often already been hurt and abused, either as children or as adults, or who have been trafficked into prostitution or forced into it through economic or social deprivation and from there found themselves forced into appearing in porn.

    When anyone watches a porn movie they have no idea if they are watching someone getting raped or sexually assaulted. It’s a safe assumption that a lot of the time they will be watching rape or sexual assault. At the very least they will be watching someone getting hurt. That’s all implicit in your first point, but I wanted to make it as clear as possible, in case anyone was in in any doubt.

    Another argument made by some feminists who support porn on the grounds of “choice” and women’s liberation from traditional roles in sex is that women and men get enjoyment from it and those of us who are against it are against women’s enjoyment. This gets reinforced by individual reactions: some men and women who have found themselves getting turned on by porn and whose physical reactions are therefore confusing have difficulties articulating honestly how they feel and being clear and honest with themselves and others. Don’t be afraid! Porn is so mainstreamed and dominant and plays such an influential role in our developing minds and emotions as adolescents, it would be surprising if you didn’t have some physical reactions. That doesn’t make you a bad person BUT it doesn’t make porn OK. It may take you a while to stop having a physical reaction – but once you consciously accept and identify that what you are watching is almost certainly not a willing woman and that what she is being made to do is not pleasurable for any woman, you will start to lose that reaction.

    Thirdly, pornography is used to stimulate and justify violence against women. Now, that argument could be undermined, for example, it can seem similar to wanting to ban alcohol simply because some people become more violent when they have consumed it. HOwever, with pornography, the content itself is built on violence, coercion and control of women’s sexuality, so when the consequences match the content I think that we have to recognise that there are direct causal links between pornography and violence, in both directions, and do everything we can do stop it.

    I have heard some say that violence against women exists even where there is no pornography, and had that argument used to say that it is pointless to ban pornography and that we should be focusing on other forms of sexist imagery or not bothering to challenge it at all, that abusive men will get their ideas no matter what we do. First, i am far from convinced that there is anywhere free from porn. Second, I believe that pornography is what creates the space for sexist and offensive images to exist in mainstream culture and the more we tolerate pornography the more we tolerate increasingly offensive images of women in magazines, adverts and TV.

    There’s loads more I want to say but probably already this is too long. Please keep up the good work. Everyone reading this blog, try to encourage some of your friends to think about what pornography is doing to them and their own relationships. Ask them if they would be happy for their own daughter to be filmed in a porn movie. If it’s not good enough for your daughter it’s not good enough for anyone else’s. It’s hard work but it really does matter.

    Thanks!

  10. Keep up the good work. I pray your message against porn stays clear and strong. This is one of the things in the feminist movement that really cause me to wonder… Why aren’t more feminists anti-porn?

  11. i’m not a feminist i don’t think, however, porn has been a damaging factor in my life for the past 10 years. just reading this blog has been so reassuring that i’m not the only one out there suffering because of it, or wanting to fight against it. I wish there was more i could do… i live in York, does anyone know if there is any anti-porn activists in the north of england? what can i do to make a difference?

  12. “Men define themselves as being whatever is not a woman, in order to be a man it is necessary for there to be a subordinate group of women for men to compare themselves to and feel superior to.”

    I’m a man and I don’t define myself that way. Your statement is too narrow. I’m intelligent and grounded in reality enough to know that I cannot have a successful relationship, an actual intimate relationship with a woman if I objectify her, or feel superior to her in any way.

    Be specific, your statement regards a number of men, not all men. Give us a break! Statements like the one you made are just going to prevent progress if you dismiss men who treat women with respect, hate pornography and do their best to be present and EQUAL in a relationship.

    Life isn’t just black & white. You sound like you’re on acid, which is not going to lead to a dialogue with reasonable men who are grounded in reality.

    Good luck.

  13. When we say ‘men’, we are referring to men as a social group, it doesn’t mean every single individual man in the whole wide world ever.

    We do not dismiss men who treat women with respect; and intelligent, respectful comments by men have always been welcome on this blog.

    You, though, despite your claims, are neither; “you sound like you’re on acid” is neither intelligent, nor respectful.

    Your comment is, in fact, Nice Guy whining. You want women to listen to you, and approve of you, and be oh so grateful that you’re a Nice Guy, even though you spend your time attacking women for not qualifying every single statement they make to acknowledge what a Nice Guy you are.

    A genuinely good man would not spend his time attacking women in this way, and expecting them to fall at his feet because he claims to not be a misogynist. A genuinely good man would not waste time picking pedantic petty holes in women’s arguments.

    A genuinely good man would understand that it’s not women’s job to make him – or any man- feel good about himself.

    Your entire comment is underhand misogyny. You’re a Nice Guy, and us uppity women, complaining all the time, rather than pandering to your Nice Guy ego, are hindering progress, because we’re being uppity and not making it easy for poor Nice Guys like you, who don’t actually want to listen any way, but only want to be congratulated for being such a Nice Guy.

  14. Thanks for being specific. I didn’t call you uppity. I don’t expect you to fall at my feet.

    I believe what you suffer from is ‘misandry’, or ‘cunts who hate men’

    Good Luck!

  15. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you, a misogynist and an MRA, who just has to tell us poor little women how we’re doing it all wrong, and how, because we don’t listen to him, we’re cunts and we hate men!

    Needless to say, any further comments from him will be deleted unread.

  16. I thought you were being a bit harsh in your dismissal of vanitytimes, but his second post does seem to confirm what you were saying. You should let him post though. I think it’s best to engage him in argument – maybe you can change the way he is feeling.

    I’m unsure about porn … I am a man, and I have occasionally looked at it. I don’t think, in itself, it’s necessarily woman-hating, but the language often used is pretty hateful. Horrible, in fact. And a lot of what’s depicted seems pretty extreme – seems focused on humiliation. From what I’ve read most of the women in it are not being coerced, at least consciously, and some are making good money from it; but this doesn’t mean it’s a good thing for society. What gets shown does portray a world in which women are sex-toys, and want to be the recipricants of quite aggressive action by the men. And it does portray a picture of women’s bodies which seems a bit wrong. Very wrong. A world in which pubic hair is seen as unattractive. Seems almost paedophilic to me.

    Having said that – the men are also seen as objects. Just penises. The roles they take are just as narrow. Leering aggressive faces. It messes us all up, as it stands. I don’t imagine internet porn addicts are particularly happy people – trapped in cycles of estrangement from sex – always observing.

    Anyway – I don’t think it has to be that way. Porn is essentially fiction. Fiction designed to thrill; to satisfy a ‘need’ created from a simplified fictional world. It’s maybe similar to action films in which a set of one dimensional criminals are vanquished by some incredibly tough and skillful ‘hero’. These films create, and satisfy a desire for violence on screen; most porn films create and satisfy a desire for sex. But the desires are skewed; simplistic and often malevolent.

    I think it’s fine for men to find women attractive, and to find images of women attractive. It’s just that in porn these images are so charged with negative assumptions and ideologies. And the images are perhaps now prevailing over actual human relationships. Maybe…

    I hope you don’t think I’m just trying to be ‘a nice guy’. I like your site.

  17. Regarding women being coerced into pornography, women get trafficked into pornography the same way they get trafficked into prostitution, see:

    The Demand for Victims of Sex Trafficking

    and this article on the French porn industry.

    Also, even if a woman doesn’t have a gun to her head (as Linda Lovelace did during the making of Deep Throat), poverty itself is a form of coercion, and even if a woman does choose to enter the porn industry, the choices she has once she’s in there, and once she’s on a porn set, can be severely limited, and her choices about leaving more limited still. See:

    My fears for all Felicities

    and, the sexual sadism of our culture.

    For the treatment of women in the sex industry, see

    A Rough Trade

    As for making a lot of money, a very few women may do, but the IUSW (who, being essentially a lobby group for the sex industry, has no reason to exaggerate downwards) lists £400 as the most one will get paid, and that’s for a double anal.

    Most women don’t last six months in the industry, it’s too physically gruelling

  18. Maybe if attitudes towards sexuality weren’t so implicitly based on gender roles there would be less porn. What I mean to say is that anglo-saxon culture promotes and cultivates this idea that men need to act in a certain way to meet a woman. And in turn women come to expect that treatment, just look at a show like “the pick up artist” in the U.S., these guys are successful at getting these girls after using some crafty strategy, fitted to the idea that conversation is never just light-heartedly flirty and either doesn’t happen or is completely
    over-sexualized (this crap is bought by both the sexes, and that’s why it works). This premise would make no sense in any other society. There needs to be a rapprochement between men and womens ideas about their interaction with each other. I’m not personally for or against porn, but until gender realtions aren’t strained to the point where women expect one thing and men don’t think that they can’t meet those expectations, porn will continue to thrive. The true culprit isn’t men, women, or porn even for that matter, it’s anglo-saxon society.

  19. I get at what you’re trying to say and I agree about the gender roles problem. However:

    “The true culprit isn’t men, women, or porn even for that matter, it’s anglo-saxon society.”

    Well, in that case, why does France have one of the most thriving porn industries in the world? And I don’t think it’s just a Western problem—prostitution exists or has existed in every society.

    And society isn’t just a vague entity, it’s made up of individuals (women and men). I mean you can’t say that Hefner isn’t (one of the many) culprits…

  20. The crime amunghts porn users is they occationaly drift into an actual slave & pimp yes pre 1864ish SLAVERY very selfish indeed. Post 911 has seen a super increase of American kidnapings for porn & prostitution. These were once filled by Russian, Chineese, @ Mexican so sadly. The longer enslaved the less valuable the more desperate the porn sadly.

  21. I came across this blog accidentally but this issue has concerned me for a few weeks now. I used to be quite into porn and watched a lot of online porn, but I began to read some feminist lit on pornography and it convinced me that what I was participating in was wrong. My friends are porn consumers and I know it will be difficult to convince them not to watch anymore but I think I will discuss it with them. I decided to give up all porn for Lent, but I’m not going to stop there I am going to continue to avoid it even after the Lenten season is over. What shocks me is the number of otherwise normal, heterosexual men who see nothing wrong with women being degraded on film! I don’t think you can watch large amounts of porn and have a healthy respect for women you meet in real life. I love to see women naked because I find their bodies to be beautiful, but I don’t think watching a woman gag on a man’s penis or be anally assaulted is just harmless fun. Anyhow, this whole porn thing has forced me to confront my former love of strip clubs too. Strip clubs are just another example of men objectifying women and using their bodies for our pleasure. I used to think the Catholic Church was wrong when it came to their condemnation of pornography, I thought it was just another example of the Church’s fear of sex. Now I see what they were objecting to was the degradation of women that porn endorses. The violence and sexual assaults in our society probably have a direct link to the amount of porn men consume daily. What frightens me is the sexual assaults seem to be involving younger and younger men and women. The easy access young men have to porn (some of it quite violent) today is scary! Well, keep up the good fight. Here’s one man you have convinced!

  22. This is such a wonderful space!!!!!

  23. this is so encouraging! i am a young woman and have grown up with the idea that feminst are winey lesbians who hate men and that pornography is perfectly fine. however, when ever i have witnessed any of it i feel sick and get a lump in my throat.
    i am currently in a loving relationship with my boyfriend, but his use of porn, constant viewing of pornographic images and need for images of other women in general has made me feel very inadequate and insecure in our relationship. i have tried buying certain ‘garments for the bedroom’, and removing all body hair etc, but these made me feel degraded and even more insecure when i did not enjoy them but he did. i know there is no way i can get him stop these activities as he goes by the view of most men that “all men do it so it’s fine” and it would not be fair of me to issue some sort of ultimatum but it is comforting to find sites like this particularly with responses from men who agree with these issues surrounding pornography and strip clubs.
    i tihnk you should, however, allow men to have their say. particularly regarding vanitytimes. he may have a slightly different view, but is still taking the time to listen to your views. we should be careful not to put all men who view porn down as misogynists! men who view porn are in the majority and are not bad people, we just have to hope that they are willing to listen to the view point of real women and understand how their actions are hurtful. just because they are not making the porn, does not mean they are not encouraging it.

  24. Hello Amy,

    I’m glad you find this site useful. Have you tried talking to your boyfriend about any of this? It’s possible to discuss how unhappy you are without it being an ultimatum.

    Re. Male commentators, they do get to have their say, only purely abusive/stupid comments get deleted; ‘vanitytimes’ got his say, and demonstrated very clearly, by calling us ‘cunts’, that he was a misogynist, with no genuine interested in listening.

  25. Repentantmale

    i was drifting into internet porn and becoming more and more un comfortable about the crap i was finding so looked for anti veiws reading and hearing the other side has had me in tears trully. as users of this stuff men and are being exploited and dehumanised too so there is a viscious circle. no one wins only the creeps who make the money. by the way young boys are also used up in this way. Good luck to all campainers i will try to spread the truth

  26. I am a 25-year old heterosexual man. I have been addicted to porn for ten years and wish only the worse for this global industry. May the righteous succeed in disintegrating it to dust.

  27. I am comforted by this site and want to learn more. Thanks.

  28. ignorancebarometer

    Here are a few ideas.

    1. I really hate the “if you don’t like porn you don’t like sex” line. First off, porn =/= sex. Second of all, if you don’t like sex and are happy not liking sex, SO WHAT? There are people who have low libido, are asexual, choose celibacy, etc. From what I’ve read it seems that most sex-positive thinkers welcome people with all levels of interest in and comfort with sex. So…I’m not sure why being asexual or disliking sex immediately discredits a person’s point.

    It just seems like “you just hate sex” is a petty insult to throw at anyone. How much I (or anyone else) likes sex is not really anyone else’s business and is not relevant to any argument I make about porn.

    2. I think pornography hurts EVERYONE and I don’t think heterosexual pornography is the only stuff that does it. Yes it is the dominant but the powerfully abusive messages bleed into other types of porn as well. Porn for male homosexuals is pretty much exactly the same except that a submissive male is substituted for the woman. Porn for lesbians is either all about men anyway or, in the rare instance when it’s actually made for women, is either a.) so fake as to suggest that there is no real joy or passion in lesbian sex or b.) degrading and abusive itself. I’ve looked for “feminist” porn and been none too impressed with either the heterosexual or lesbian variety.

    I recognize that the abuse of women falls into the system of the patriarchy and gets focused on more, but I think it’s important to note that those abusive models end up bleeding into all kinds of relationships, even relationships that by all rights should be free of the patriarchal models.

  29. Thanks for creating this space. I am a queer woman who is part of feminist circles that generally see being pro-sex and feminist as being critical of most porn (i.e. all the heterosexist, overtly degrading, violent etc. that comprises 99% of what’s out there), but who are equally committed to destigmatizing “radical queer porn” that supposedly is produced with better labor standards …

    But even this so-called “good porn” seems dehumanizing and alienating and violent to me, so I often feel isolated and “old-fashioned” for being the type of feminist who actually has a problem with all porn, not just the worst kinds.

    Imagining that anyone I’m dating is also looking at these images of strangers makes me feel so sad and alienated and turned off. And I’m someone who totally delights in real, face-to-face, caring respectful consensual sexuality.

    My girlfriend (an mtf transwoman) says she’s happy and fine not looking at porn and so we’ve been going happily along, but as part of her gender transition she is banking genetic material in case we ever want to have kids after her gender hormone therapies and/or surgeries have rendered her infertile. To make the deposits you have to climax in 30 minutes in an icky place under a lot of pressure and all the sperm banks stock the rooms with porn magazines. I tried to write her an erotica short story for her to use instead but the last time she went she said she used the porn too because she was worried about making the deposit within the time limit.

    That made me feel so sad and alienated and degraded. She said she’s going to try her darnedest not to use it next time but is not sure whether she can make it.

    Do you know if anyone has done any organizing to try to restructure sperm banks so they are less repressive and time-bound and dependent on porn? Right now they seem like these gross factories where people go in and are channeled into using porn whether they believe in it or not.

  30. Hello,

    I’m glad you’re finding this site useful.

    I don’t know if anything’s being done about sperm banks; it seems to me that pressure for that would have to come from the users themselves. I imagine the majority of men and trans women using sperm banks find it mechanical and unpleasant, and may feel that they are having porn use forced on them, but don’t have any forum for speaking out about it.

  31. Great site. Everything that is said here is extremely logical and just. Following anti-pornography theory to its fullest will create a far more just society.

  32. There are third wave feminists in my class who aren’t on board with anti-pornography theory. How do I convince them?

  33. this is great it’s a message that all of feminism can unite under

  34. Steph,

    Lot’s of the third wave doesn’t agree. Some argue that the third wave was forced into creation because of this issue.

  35. Is this site also against the written pornography of ancient Rome and the Enlightenment? It kinda sounds like you’re more against modern-day porn than anything, and more specifically, modern-day porn intended for men. But what about the technically impressive written pornography of the past? Is it equally condemned, or does its artfulness make it an exception?

  36. hey steph
    i found the same thing in my class. there was a big class argument.

  37. it was kinda the only big argument the whole year. weird

  38. Interested,

    I’m not particularly interested in getting into a long discussion about the exact demarcation between sexually explicit art and porn – it’s mostly a red herring anyway, you’re not going to trick me into a book-burning ‘confession’.

    Pornographers always know what porn is, no pornographer ever staged Hamlet by mistake.

    We’re against porn as hate-speech, porn as misogynist, male-supremicist propaganda, porn as the eroticisation of abuse and inequality. We’re against a massive multi-billion dollar porn industry that chews women up and spits them out, fuels the demand for prostitution, and gives all of us, women and men, a narrow, prescriptive porn-script that leaves us dissatisfied and alienated.

  39. Antip,

    Dworkin initially said that the type of porn you refer to was a type of propaganda, very true. But her later book, Intercourse, describes heterosexual sex as innately unequal, by its very structure prior to any cultural ideas, yet this would mean that degrading pornography actually delivers an accurate truth and therefore not propaganda. Does pornography lie to us with propaganda, or is heterosexual sex actually innately unequal as Dworkin thought in her later works?

    Sounds like you’re more of an optimist, disagreeing with Dworkin’s Intercourse and rather believing that heterosexual sex can be — and ought be — equal.

  40. And you’re right. No pornographer ever staged Hamlet by mistake. Though Wilmot did better on purpose.

  41. “it is only by asserting one’s humanness every time, in all situations, that one becomes someone as opposed to something.”

    I always found this to be a complicated line. It sets up a definition of humanness that I’m not sure is ever really answered, though certain things are implied. It seems to imply a preferred, singular mode of humanity, rather than a plurality of modes, and that single mode is supposed to be carried through to all situations. Sometimes allowing yourself to be less respected is important. Maintaining an exterior of “humanness”, whatever that is to mean, seems to mean never letting go into the freedom of not taking oneself too seriously, and resisting getting oneself into a tizzy whenever they are not wholly respected. Dworkin is a very, very broad thinker, lots of generalizations, but that’s just that style of uber-thought that she was into. I for one will not impose a static mode onto myself. Close friends “disrespect” each other, it’s a sign of mutually shared respect. Sometimes, just sometimes, degradation is a form of “gradation”.

  42. Sarah,

    We’re not talking about someone who really cares about and respects you making fun of you, we’re talking about being treated as a thing, as less-than-human, as not deserving of bodily integrity.

    You have to be speaking from a position of oblivious privilege to think that humanness is something you can live without – you’ve obviously never been at the sharp end of being degraded, of being treated as sub-human, to be able to be so blasé about the importance of being seen as fully human.

  43. This isn’t about being seen, in general, as fully human. This is about a static attitude that is demanded constantly. Dworkin is using, maybe without definition, up a “humanness” — that’s a bold statement from any thinker. What constitutes “human”? Why allow this definition to be implied? Why let it float? Why not define what we are to be in all situations, no matter of mood or mode? Dworkin’s quote is not just a demand that women be respected in a general sense, it’s a complicated demand of being treated in a singular, constant, unwavering way, no matter context.

    If people treated me with the same form of ever-present respect in all situations, I would feel, ironically, less human. Wouldn’t you?

  44. Can one be treated as a thing, and yet also still be generally respected? What if I wish to be treated as a thing? Or does it only work if something which is not-me wishes to thing-a-cize me?

  45. “This isn’t about being seen, in general, as fully human.”

    Yes it is. This blog, and Dworkin’s writing generally, is about how women (it happens to men too but it happens to women more) are treated as not fully human. This is about pornography, prostitution, rape, battery, incest etc. etc.

    “This is about a static attitude that is demanded constantly.”

    Says who? You’ve decided that Andrea Dworkin is saying that women aren’t allowed to laugh at a joke, there is no evidence of this beyond your own over-pedantic interpretation of one short quote.

    “Dworkin’s quote is not just a demand that women be respected in a general sense, it’s a complicated demand of being treated in a singular, constant, unwavering way, no matter context.”

    It’s only you insisting on seeing ‘humanness’ as something complicated, or as something limiting. It’s not complicated or limiting to me, it’s about being treated as a person, with my own needs, my own rights and my own destiny, as not existing as a thing for other people to use and abuse.

    “If people treated me with the same form of ever-present respect in all situations, I would feel, ironically, less human. Wouldn’t you?”

    I think you’re confusing surface issues, such as social formalities, etiquette etc, with something more important, more deep-seated, which is having another person recognise that you are fully human, exactly the same as they are.

    “Can one be treated as a thing, and yet also still be generally respected?”

    No.

  46. I guess my position is this:

    I am both an object and a subject. My humanity is involved with both dimensions, not just one. Releasing oneself into a controlled, sexual experiment where I might be, at my own consent, turned into a thing, allows me to express a form, or dimensions I guess, of that humanity.

    So, If you are referring to being made a thing against ones consent, then we’re on the same page and I agree with you. But If you believe that I cannot, or ought not, consensually request such a treatment, then we’re not on the same page. Playing with ones “thing”-like qualities is an experiment that justifies and tests the non-thing-like qualities. There is an aspect of our humanity that we can explore when being made to be as a thing.

    To be denied an exploration into this sort of “objectification” (more properly “Objectification”) shrinks the possible modes I can be engaged in. Thus, if we are to deny women a consensual exploration of thing-hood, we will be shrinking the possible modes we can explore, and therefore, we would be engaging in a type of dehumanizing — a shrinking of possibilities.

    But do you define objectification/being-made-into-a-thing as innately non-consensual? If I wish to be treated as a thing and my partner abides my request, does this escape the kind of thing-making you mean?

  47. Sarah, this conversation is beginning to go round in circles, and it wasn’t remotely interesting to begin with.

    Bully for you, you get a kick out of play-acting at being turned into an object (you have the privilege of being able to say stop and have that respected – plenty of women don’t), and you think that makes you a more interesting and exciting person (it doesn’t).

  48. porn is somethihg that’s not easy to over come but talking and walking agianst it is away to go. All around the world porn has become a quiet sin. Porn has cause people to lost themselves in sexaul thoughts. Porn has cause people to hart people, rape, assult, molest, and kill. Porn is something to fight against.

  49. I can tell you the mental and physical duress that being involved with someone who has an addiction to porn. It is highly humilating to find out that the person you care so much for has such a strong addiction and rationizes it…by the standard words..”well it is legal” and they (women) like it. It is proven that is has had a huge impact on increases of divorces, increase of sexual attacks on women both verbal and physical, and the destruction of the family morales. I believe that if people who oppose porn stand together and grab the attention of the government and say we will no longer stand the degregation of women, men, children and the very core that makes us “human”…and have porn made illegal and close down the smut movies, we would begin to have a chance that the next generation will not fall into the trap of porn addication. It is proven over and over (as well as first hand experience from watching my spouse) that the addictive level increase and becomes “sicker” for the inidividual. So what begins as a curiousity becomes more and more addictive and as the web sites grow so does the insatible hunger to view more and more and cruder material. I have only my view but there are many studies that prove what I say to be correct. We as humans and caring individuals should begin to rally against porn and as with any thing if you truly believe in your cause you will get action! Porn and the sick indiviudals that are making money on the addicts that are so willing to pull out their debit or credit cards and thus begins the cycle of addition and abuse.
    People of the planet…….let’s wake up to the destruction that porn causes and stop this before more and more people are pulled into this sick behavior!

  50. Hello people wake up! We as a unified group can stop porn and the distribution there of……………but as the old saying goes…I can’t push that stone but TOgether we can pull it anywhere……….I just down loaded over a hundred sites my “husband” has …..how sad…a wrecked marriage it will become….mental and physical loss and he still doesn’t think anything of it….how sad…what will be next? What i saw looked mighty young….as the saying goes one voice won’t be heard but two screaming will definately be heard……….let us do something about what the destruction of these sites do!

  51. Hello Cheryl,

    I hope you don’t feel like your comments are being overlooked, they were read before being approved, and this page gets several hits every day.

    This group is a little dormant at the moment; I don’t know what country you live in, but if you want to take part in activism, you could try Object, or some of the other links in the side bar.

    A

  52. I was dumbfounded after reading the comment of Lady B(6th message). She says people have people felt that she’s not a true feminist because she’s anti-porn!! I would love to get a closer look at those MORONS who equate porn supports as feminists. It’s outrageous!! An insult to the very concept of feminism and to the entire female class. It’s something like changing the very meaning of conscience and moral values. Sexual liberators as those Bastards would like us to believe, pornography and the porn supporting magazines are the true sexual enslavers. They are destroying the very fabric that beautifies and sustains a society. The very foundation of this menace must be crushed. For God’s sake it’s the humanity at stake.

  53. One can be both feminist and pro- or anti-porn. We don’t want to paint feminism as dependent upon a single, specific cause, just the general cause of freedom. And there are many ways to interpret and prioritize strategies of freedom.

  54. “And there are many ways to interpret and prioritize strategies of freedom.”

    Yes there are, but it doesn’t mean they are all right. Some women who call themselves feminists are pro-porn, I think they are wrong, both in their pro-porn arguments, and in their claim to be feminists.

    Feminism is the only political ideology that has become so adulterated that it can be interpreted to mean almost anything; this is because it has been co-opted and sold back to us a ‘lifestyle’, there to make us feel good about ourselves and our consumer choices.

    No other political movement has been so watered down. If someone were to say ‘I’m a communist, and I’m pro-capitalism’ or, ‘I’m a pacifist, and I’m pro-the arms trade’ anyone can immediately see the massive, nonsensical contradiction involved, but apparently (according to you, ‘She-Ra’, and the ‘we’ you claim to be speaking on behalf of), one can say ‘I’m a feminist, and I’m pro-porn’ and ‘I’m a feminist, and I’m anti-porn’, with neither statement being contradictory.

    I wish these ‘pro-porn feminists’ would start being honest; they’re selfish/individualist libertarians who happen to be female, they want to be free to consume pornography, and the wider consequences of the sex industry, for all women, aren’t important to them.

  55. If feminism is about expanding and maintaining freedom for women, then yes, the freedom to consume/produce pornography can be articulated as a suitable goal. Pro-porn is not an antithesis to feminism.

    When Dworkin writes pornography, and at times she does indeed do just that, is this act wrong? Or does her expression of it serve another purpose? Such as for the purpose of revealing women’s bondage? Since Dworkin occasionally wrote feminist porn, can you explain her seeming contradiction?

  56. If feminism is about expanding and maintaining freedom for women, then yes, the freedom to consume/produce pornography can be articulated as a suitable goal. Pro-porn is not an antithesis to feminism.

    So, then, expanding women’s freedom to own slaves, sexually abuse children, sell instruments of torture to third world dictators is all feminist?

    Again, this is just selfish/individualist libertarianism conducted by female human beings. Feminism is about the freedom and liberation of all women, not just giving free reign to a select hand-full to become exploiters.

    When Dworkin writes pornography, and at times she does indeed do just that, is this act wrong? Or does her expression of it serve another purpose? Such as for the purpose of revealing women’s bondage? Since Dworkin occasionally wrote feminist porn, can you explain her seeming contradiction?

    Dworkin did not write pornography, ‘feminist’ or otherwise. She did write sexually explicit material, to, as you put it ‘[reveal] women’s bondage’, but it wasn’t pornography. Pornography is the eroticisation of sexual abuse, dominance and submission etc etc ad nausium.

    You must be getting pretty desperate, to try to defend pornography by claiming Andrea Dworkin was a pornographer!

  57. I’m saying that pornography can have any message one wishes. Dworkin’s sexually explicit writings are clearly a mirroring of the pornography she disliked. So how the original can be pornography, yet her mirroring of it can simply be sexually explicit, is a bit confusing to me. Can you explain? Is the eroticization found in the intent of the writer? In the writing itself? In the viewer?

    Pornography did not have the definition you refer to until somewhat recently. Excuse me if I haven’t caught up yet. Me and the dictionary are both a bit behind the times, since we can define pornography without the terms “abuse, dominance, submission”, though not without “sexual explicitness”.

    We could go to the word “pornography” itself, but the term was hijacked to refer to sexually explicit materials far later, rather than what it means literally. One might say that the term pornography has been significantly hijacked (redefined) twice.

  58. You’re not saying very much of anything useful or interesting.

    I’ve given you the definition of pornography this anti-porn blog is using; without such a definition we can be accused of being anti-sex, anti-men, anti-anything.

    It’s the thing itself that’s important, not the label, you want to label different things porn, go right ahead – call a blank sheet of paper pornography, then defend women’s right to pornography/a blank sheet of paper.

    The definition I’ve given you is what we’re talking about when we talk about pornography.

  59. “I’ve given you the definition of pornography this anti-porn blog is using; without such a definition we can be accused of being anti-sex, anti-men, anti-anything.”

    Hmmm, so with your new definition, you can only be accused of being anti-the-eroticization-of-power. But is this true? Do you really think that power should have no place in sexual representation? Do you find power unsexy? Or morally wrong in itself?

    It seems that to prove porn to be wrong, you simply redefined it as innately wrong. Or am I not getting you?

    Semantics are important. Words are shared things. To take one and redefine it in a very different way seems like a co-optation. If I redefine something, I take a very long time to say why I’ve redefined it. I am unaware of such a discussion of redefinition ever happening. Can you refer me to a book that gives these semantics ample time?

  60. I’ve given you the definition of pornography we’re using; if you don’t like that definition, tough, that’s your problem, not mine.

    There is nothing dishonest in what I am doing; I am giving you a clear and consistent definition of what this blog is in opposition to; we’re hardly the first or only ones to use this definition of pornography, and we’re not attacking things that don’t fit this definition.

    You’re the one who keeps shifting things around – first feminism could mean anything, then Dworkin was a pornographer, now you want to defend the eroticisation of power. What do you actually want? If you are simply defending what gets you off, be honest enough to just say that.

  61. I am in a relatively new relationship and I want to discuss porn with my partner because I feel that if his views don’t match mine then there is no hope for the relationship, but it is a subject that seems to be difficult to bring up. I feel like he doesn’t want to talk about it, but it’s so important to me. I don’t know what to do. I love him but I need to know how he feels about porn – and certainly whether or not he uses it! But I don’t know how to approach it. I’m constantly made to feel like I’m crazy because I’m anti-porn. Argh!

  62. That sound like a very difficult situation to be in – it’s funny how porn is defended as ‘speech’ but really talking about it, what it does to us, is still taboo.

    Perhaps talking about it in a more generalised way, as an ethical issue, would be an easier way to start the conversation?

  63. I also am working to help people negatively affected by porn (there’s not much on my blog yet, but there will be). One of the worst ways I think we’re affected by porn is that women no longer have a choice in whether or not to accept porn in their relationships. Since most men admit to lying in some manner about their porn use, since most men use porn, and since most won’t stop using it for a woman even if she’s curled up in fetal position in a corner crying. I think that part needs to stop. Also I am not looking forward to seeing how the next generation is going to approach sex. I read a survey somewhere in the UK where over 200 boys aged 12-14 were surveyed about sex. 45% of them said they didn’t know if it was OK or thought it was OK to hold down a woman and have sex with her. The number jumped to 65% if they had been dating for over 6 months or the guy had spent more than $15 on her.

  64. “most won’t stop using it for a woman even if she’s curled up in fetal position in a corner crying”

    Did you try this technique with a boyfriend?

    If it’s effecting your sex life, rather then telling them to stop using porn (which as you know is unlikely to succeed), communicate directly about the sex acts you’re not enjoying.

    Sex without communication doesn’t work, unless it’s already good (there’s a 1 in a thounsand chance at that). Deferring everything to porn viewership, and not engaging in discussion about sex acts you don’t enjoy, won’t correct their behavior in bed.

  65. No, but thanks for trying to make my argument less legitimate by trying to paint me as irrational. I’ve read it a lot on forums, heard it in numerous interviews, women talking about trying to talk to their partners and they can literally be sobbing and begging them to stop because it hurts so much, and the guy just completely disregards her because he feels so that he feels like he’s allowed to say what should or shouldn’t hurt or be acceptable in a monogamous relationship. It’s not a lack of communication on the woman’s part. I noticed you conveniently lay all blame on her, her lack of communication, her refusal to see where the “real” problem is, because obviously it can’t be something as “harmless” as porn. It’s not about correcting his behavior in bed, it’s about him looking at porn despite the fact that he knows it really hurts her (the majority of women feel hurt by it). I’m curious as to how you could turn a discussion about porn into a discussion about sex, as they are two completely different things. Porn has nothing to do with sex. You could barely even call what you watch in porn sex.

  66. elkballet,

    Sorry, that one kind of slipped through the net – it looked more reasonable in isolation, rather than part of the conversation thread. Your response is absolutely spot-on.

    A

  67. I misunderstood you, I didn’t realize the problem was with porn-watching in and of itself on principle. I just assumed that it was effecting something, and that something was sex. I hope you can see where I was coming from. After-all, if porn watching wasn’t effecting something in your life in a negative way, that would be the definition of harmless.

    I guess I just don’t feel as though I have a right to say what my partner is watching (or eating) unless it is effecting me. Would you be ok if your partner asked you to stop watching something? Or would you see that as paternalistic?

  68. Stephanie,

    I think the point elkballet was making is that many women find their partner’s porn consumption hurtful, either because they feel they are being cheated on in some way, compared unfavorably, or simply because they see pornography as a recording of another person’s human rights being violated.

    You made the mistake of thinking this was solely about sex/ sexual performance being negatively affected by a man mistaking the ‘sex’ he sees in porn for the real thing.

    As for ‘paternalism’, porn consumption itself is an ethical issue (as is food consumption, to follow your example, there are environmental and animal welfare issues involved in the food we eat). If your partner was paying for a live stream broadcast of child sex abuse, or attending dog fights, would you feel you didn’t have the right to say anything, simply because it wasn’t directly affecting you?

  69. Most women I’ve heard from about the issue (I’ve conducted a few interviews, and read through ones others have conducted) mention things about it that clearly affect the relationship, albeit indirectly. Many seem to have this idea that it’s only affecting the relationship if it gets to the point where he can no longer have sex anymore. What about when it gets to the point where she feels cheated on, where she feels compared to porn stars, where she feels just plain hurt and uncomfortable? That would have just as dramatic an effect as him pulling away into a virtual world. Alas, her wants, needs, and desires are never mentioned in porn debates, it’s only a matter of, well can he get it up? OK then stop complaining cause it’s not about you, the subtext being it’s all about him.

    Many women as well mention things like that he wants to try porn moves on her despite them not feeling good, subtly (or not) wanting her to go for a more porn star look (ranging from less pubic hair, all the way up to asking her to get implants), and perhaps most importantly, MANY mention a loss of intimacy. A feeling like he’s absent during sex. Many men interviewed mention secretly fantasizing about porn stars and their favorite scenes rather than focusing on their partner during sex. This is the kind of thing that can really destroy a woman’s confidence and should not be brushed aside. The only reason it is, is because the porn argument is all about his wants and needs and never hers.

    As for whether I can tell him what he can or can’t watch, porn is anti-woman propaganda, plain and simple. It’s ridiculous for anyone to insist women need to be OK with their partner getting sexually aroused by the abuse of other women. Like Antiplondon said, simply because it’s not affecting you in any obvious way (though I highly doubt based on all my interviews with men who use and don’t use that any man who regularly uses porn can keep it completely separate from his “real” life) does not mean you should turn a blind eye to the fact that he’s becoming aroused by the abuse of the gender you belong to.

  70. Furthermore (sorry, I pressed the button too early), I have as much of a right to ask him not to look at porn as I do to ask him not to sleep with other women. A relationship is just another name for an agreement between two people. What people do or do not do in a relationship is not dictated in some kind of universal contract, it is what two (or maybe more) people agree to during the course of the relationship. So I have the right to ask him to do or not do anything, just as he has the right to ask me to do or not do anything. Either of us has the right to agree or not agree to anything. Any breach of this agreement is cheating, regardless of how stupid or absurd the agreement is. There is absolutely no difference in asking a partner not to look at porn and asking them not to sleep with anyone else. One is just more universally accepted than the other, but that maybe shouldn’t be. I’ve heard on several occasions women saying finding out their partner used porn hurts more than if he had slept with other women.

  71. antip,

    Your food analogy is good, so I’ll go with it.

    Food can be rejected because its production effects others. Animals, agricultural workers. A rejection on that basis is fine.

    Food can be rejected because it’s bad for the body. Trans fats are a good example. In this case, a person has full right to them since they have a right over their own body/person. On this basis I’d argue that we’re allowed to hurt ourselves.

  72. Stephanie,

    You’re right to a degree, people have a right to ‘hurt themselves’ (although I could argue that when you have others dependent on you, for example young children, you have a duty not to give yourself a heart attack in your 40s – few of us exist in true isolation), but since pornography doesn’t magically appear out of thin air, you comment is irrelevant to the ongoing debate.

    If you are trying to say women have a ‘right’ to harm themselves by appearing in pornography, you are being disingenuous by ignoring the extreme economic inequality that forces the vast majority of women into it.

    To continue the food analogy, if all you can afford is crap food that will shorten your life, you’re not making a meaningful free choice to consume it.

  73. Antip,

    Actually, when I said that people have the right to hurt themselves, I mean that they have the right to ‘ingest’ pornography even if that pornography changes, “hurts”, them.

    There is no true isolation, I agree. Solipsism is an existential absurdity, but most people believe it to be a political right (as would I to a degree). Abortion, for instance, was once said to threaten family values. By connecting a personal act to communal degradation, nearly anything can be said to not really be “you alone”, and therefore scrutinized on an isolated, personal level.

    I only wanted to say that the consumption of porn, “bad food”, in and of itself isn’t wrong. It’s the way it’s produced that makes it wrong. There can be ethically produced porn (porn without real actors) similar to more ethically raised livestock. If porn did feature real actors, who were enthusiasts or experimentalists who did it for free (non-capitalist), it can still be scrutinized, just not in the usual way. It’s a far cry from someone forced into it from debt or drug addiction. I suppose you are looking at the mainstream of porn, and not porn as a hypothetical that is indepedent from our time period?

    Ethically-produced porn can still be said to have a negative side in the end product (how it effects people). So I hope you can see that what I have said is not “irrelevant to the ongoing debate”, assuming your debate is about the ethics of pornography and I haven’t mistaken you.

    While modern economics do indeed force women into porn, it would be a mistake to see porn only as a result of those economic conditions.

  74. Re. Sarah’s comment @ 46, funny how no one hardly ever chooses to explore the ‘thing’ side of their humanity by, say, temporarily selling themselves into indentured servitude, or working in a thirdworld sweatshop.

    It’s amazing the lengths some people will go to to make their really rather dull fetishes seem profound.

  75. Your blog has made very interesting reading, a truly fantastic site. It is good to know there are other like-minded people out there.

    I am currently doing an essay on pornography censorship for university (which does seems insignificant in the context of the larger issues being dealt with here, but I suppose the more people that are enlightened to the true, horrifying nature of pornography the better) and I shall be referencing your site in my argument, hope that is ok. I have found many censor’s websites and investigations into the extent and abuse involved in child pornography and measures in place to take it off the internet, and it is clearly very valuable research that is needed to demolish the industry (can’t believe it can be called an industry)I have found it more difficult to get hold of investigations on adult pornography censorship, (may have not been looking in the right places) does anyone know of any studies on censorship practices?

    I’d just like to clarify that I think pornography should be eradicated fully not simply censored. Thank you for this site and keep up your commendable work, it is much appreciated.

  76. Hi Rew,

    Feel free to reproduce parts of this blog with attribution.

    Re. censorship of adult pornography, that would fall under obscenity laws in the UK – laws which are inadequate as they are simply one group of men telling another group of men what they can and can’t look at, and have nothing at all to do with the conditions the images were produced under, or the affects such images may have on the viewer (male or female).

    For the US, it may be useful for you to look into the Dworkin-MacKinnon anti-porn ordinance http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/OrdinanceModelExcerpt.html (but beware, Dworkin is probably the most mis-represented radical feminist ever, so go for the source material).

  77. In Response to DF – August 28th, 2009 (here almost a year and a half later) He says:
    “It’s just that in porn these images are so charged with negative assumptions and ideologies. And the images are perhaps now prevailing over actual human relationships. Maybe…”

    He says that he occasionally looks at porn and thinks that it’s fine to have that kinda “fantasy” acted out on the screen comparing it to the need to see violence acted on out the screen of an action film (Can’t relate, have no need to see violence acted out, but whatever). But, this is just him justifying his behavior. He admits that it is negatively charged and there are language and acts that are degrading to women.

    But then he goes on to say that he feels like it hasn’t replaced real intimacy yet, so what’s the problem, right? I don’t even care if it replaces real intimacy or not for someone, or it’s like, that’s not the point. The POINT is that a self proclaimed “nice guy” like him, occasionally pops in for some misogynist orgasm when he wants. That he has a “need” to see this MISOGYNIST “fantasy” (though that girl in the video really is being called a “Dirty bitch” while being fucked in her anus and vaginal canal at the same time, that is REALLY happening vs in an action film where no one dies, the punches are fake and choreographed no one ACTUALLY gets hurt). He is trying to justify is occasional dabbling in porn that is degrading to women.

    It’s cool, he feels guilty about it enough he has come to the site to read. And, dude, your only human!! But, the fact is like another commenter said, once you wake up and really THINK about what is going on, you won’t get turned on by it – you will actually get turned off. There IS nothing wrong with being aroused by images of women, and I DO earnestly believe that there is something that could be designed that would be visual and involve exploring sexuality with men and women on equal playing fields but it is not what mainstream porn is right now – and so far, I have not see a porn video that portrays equality – if one could be made, I haven’t seen it.

  78. I love you antiplodon. I love this blog. I agree 100%. I’ve always considered myself an anti-feminism because of all the pro-pornography/prostitution feminists out there who think it’s “sexually liberating” or “freedom of choice”. My ass.

    I can safely call myself a feminist now.

  79. Hi everyone- if anyone is going to the Anti-porn Feminist Seminar in Boston in June- please contact me – I would love to get to know you and meet you there! Here’s my email rebekkalien@gmail.com

  80. As so rightfully pointed out pornography reinforces male supremacy, yet pornography exists because of male supremacy.
    Fighting pornography by itself will get us no where as it is part of a much bigger problem called male supremacy and privilege.
    To destroy pornography we need to destroy male supremacy and privilege.

  81. Pornography is a unique thing in that it manages to be both advert and product, cause and outcome.

    We need to destroy male supremacy and privilege to destroy pornography, and we need to destroy pornography to destroy male supremacy and privilege.

    We’re radical feminists, we are against all forms of male privilege and all the ways men oppress women, this blog happens to be specifically about pornography.

  82. Sandra Mortgensen

    Male supremacy existed without pornography. Which means you can stop either and the other will be continue onwards. There are many types of pornography that can and will exist in a less male-supreme world. And if you do stop pornography itself, this didn’t seem to matter to the vast majority of time periods where there was an even stronger sense of male supremacy, even though none of the male-supremes had any access to pornography, for hundreds upon hundreds of years. Solve this problem if you wish to advance your “cause is the effect which is the cause, ad infinitum” hypothesis.

    Stop pornography and you stop nothing. All the energy is meaningless unless you address the underpinnings which make pornography male-supreme.

    And this is before any evaluation of the possibility of stopping the production of pornography on a global scale. I prefer pecking through a mountain with a sewing needle.

    This reduces feminism by placing too much emphasis on a single cause, especially since history shows that pornography is not some ultimate cause of patriarchy. You are not a radical feminist, you are a sexually conservative feminist. Radical feminists, at minimum, can find a place for pornography which adopts radical feminist perspectives, rather than male-supreme ones. To rephrase, a radical feminist will seek to use pornography, not give up on it and then oppose it as though it is magically the only genre which can’t have more than one message. This is why you must give it a “unique” status, unlike anything else ever. You hold it on such a high pedestal, you have almost divinized it.

  83. Nuh-uh, you do not get to tell us what is and isn’t radical feminism. (I suggest you do a bit more looking around on the internet, to find out what radical feminism actually means, there are plenty of helpful links in the side bar).

    You do not get to tell us that ‘feminist pornography’ exists, let alone ‘radical feminist pornography’.

    You do not get to call us ‘sexually conservative feminists’ as if your name-calling alone proves something.

    Yes, patriarchy existed before the current global, industrialised sex industry, before pornography as it exists now. Patriarchy is not a monolith, it changes and adapts and varies across time and space; in Iran, wearing make-up can get you arrested, so wearing make-up becomes an act of rebellion, while in the west, a lack of make-up can be penalised, but both are products of patriarchy.

    Men have always had ways of communicating to each other the correct way to treat women; pornography is the current way of doing that for our globalised, atomised age. It’s no coincidence that the increase in the availability, mainstreaming and brutality of pornography has coincided with (white, western, middle-class, able-bodied) women making social and economic gains, it is a parallel back-lash against women’s advancements.

    The reality of patriarchy now is that it is inseparably entwined with, and propped up by, the sex industry. Attacking pornography is attacking patriarchy. You can spin fairy tails about ‘radical feminist pornography’ as much as you like, it isn’t going to change the fact that pornography, as it exists, for real, in the real world, is a product and a prop of patriarchy.

    “This reduces feminism by placing too much emphasis on a single cause.”

    The thing is, this is an anti-porn blog, that is what this blog is about, we are not ‘reducing feminism’, we are focussing in on one (important) aspect of it, nowhere on this blog do we claim that this is the only important aspect of feminism, nor are we the only feminist blog on the internet.

    “And this is before any evaluation of the possibility of stopping the production of pornography on a global scale. I prefer pecking through a mountain with a sewing needle.”

    So, because it’s big and difficult, we shouldn’t do anything about it? How about “And this is before any evaluation of the possibility of stopping the global slave trade. I prefer pecking through a mountain with a sewing needle.” Sounds good, doesn’t it?

    I notice you don’t actually offer up any positive alternatives, just call us prudes and accuse us of wasting our time. What big thing are you doing to end patriarchy, consuming ‘radical feminist pornography’ perhaps?

  84. And for goodness sake it’s ‘male supremacist’ not ‘male-supreme’, the term is meaningless, it sounds like something off a fast-food menu: I’ll have a super-sized, male-supreme with a side order of fries please.

  85. Whoever said it was only pornography that was the root of all oppression? It’s simply making it worse. Everyone knows media fuels oppression. Pornography is anti-female media basically coupled with a hit of cocaine. You’d have to be blind to not realize that the vast vast vast majority of porn is misogynistic and violent against women. Even pornography that isn’t blatantly violent still needs to trick the viewer into thinking he’s watching violence with degrading titles that refer to women exclusively as bitches, whores, and sluts being “fucked.” It doesn’t matter if it isn’t the only thing causing oppression and violence, it’s a contributing factor. You cannot fight for equality and less violence against women while people are making themselves associate violence against women with arousal and fun. It doesn’t matter if oppression existed without porn. Porn clearly furthers violence against women, a sense of ownership over women’s bodies, and the idea that women exist to serve men and it needs to go. Oppression never occurs because of one thing. So to say that any of those things that further oppression are silly to fight against is idiotic since ALL of them further oppression and ALL of them need to go.

    And you can sit around masturbating to your “feminist” porn (which I’m not even convinced exists, since everything I’ve seen labeled that so closely resembles mainstream pornography that I couldn’t tell you which was which) and deluding yourself into thinking it’s empowering women somehow, but regardless of whether you personally feel empowered men still see a “bitch getting fucked.” You can claim whatever you want is personally empowering. But it doesn’t matter one bit in the grand scheme of things if men still see it exactly the same way they always have. You can produce as much “feminist” porn as you want, it’s not what men want to see. You can try to flood the internet with consensual love-making and it still won’t lower the demand for “bitch gets fucked” and rape porn.

    I always hate these arguments that the only thing we need to fight bad porn is more porn. It’s like saying in order to fight McDonalds we need more fast food restaurants.

  86. Sandra Mortgensen

    Antip,

    Not consuming it, no, just writing it.

    Sadly I have not figured out a way to incorporate sex slaves from abroad into the act of writing. How do other pornographic authors manage to do it? You seem to think you can replace “pornographic industry” with “sex slaves” as though an exact equivalence. So do please explain how I can integrate slaves into the act of writing. Write on human parchment? Use one as a desk? Have them act out the scenes so I might -graph them better?

    If adopting the centuries-old stance of porn censorship is radical then surely the term means something opposite to what I thought it did.

    elkballet: porn is not only for men, yet you speak of it only in that context. We all have our ‘porn’. It is not their territory alone. It is time for women to take a piece of that real estate rather than entirely ceding it to men. This, then, is a matter of production. If one wants to defeat MacDonalds, they replace crap with quality fit to otherwise ignored palettes (an analogy more fit to my original point of co-opting male production).

  87. Since writing doesn’t involve anything other than writing, I don’t particularly care about written ‘pornography’, it has no power compared to recorded images of real sex acts.

    And please point to where exactly on this blog we have lobbied the government for greater censorship laws. Censorship alone is pointless, we’re challenging porn culture as a whole, not just pornography itself, but the attitudes that allow it and are enforced by it. If I could wave a magic wand so that all the porn disappeared, but nothing else changed, it wouldn’t make any difference, pornographers would just make it all again; this blog is here to challenge porn culture the idea that porn is just ‘harmless’, ‘fun’ or ‘fantasy’, and to educate about the negative effects it has on women and men.

    I’ll believe in ‘feminist’ porn if and when I ever actually see it, everything that gets labelled as such usually just turns out to have a woman behind the camera, claiming she’s a feminist and taking all the profits.

    Yes, most of porn is made by men, men also commit genocide, should women claim a share of that ‘real estate’ too?

    And I notice you haven’t responded to any of the points I made about the links between patriarchy and pornography, after you claimed that pornography couldn’t have anything to do with patriarchy, because patriarchy came first. I’ll just have to assume that you realised I was correct!

  88. “Radical feminists, at minimum, can find a place for pornography which adopts radical feminist perspectives, rather than male-supreme ones. To rephrase, a radical feminist will seek to use pornography, not give up on it and then oppose it as though it is magically the only genre which can’t have more than one message.”

    This actually made me laugh out loud. You don’t realize just how ignorant you sound. You obviously know nothing about radical feminism or what radical means. And seeing as you’re not a radical feminist, where do you get off telling these women what radical feminism is and is not? I could tell you that you’re not a sex-positive feminist because you support an industry that promotes sex-negative attitudes, but that doesn’t make it true. Although it would make a lot more sense, but sex-positive is just a name and not a descriptor of the actual movement.

    Sexually-conservative? Do you see any women here who believe that sex should only be between a man and a woman, for procreation, and done through a hole in the sheet? Cause I don’t. You’re just shaming women for (what you assume to be) their sexualities – prude shaming. A word that is as fictional as slut and oppressed women as much. However, since a woman’s value in a patriarchy is predicated on sex, ie: her being available for men to fuck, whenever and however they want, I’d say it’s even worse. We know that the quickest way to silence a woman is to question her sexual appeal to men, the first and foremost basis of her worth as a human being. You are not a feminist.

  89. Thanks for this No Sugarcoating. I love the phrase ‘prude shaming’, and hope it gains a wider currency!

  90. I seriously love and appreciate what you are doing. If I didn’t already repost your post about Larry Flynt, I would be reposting this! lol

  91. Thanks for the words of support!

  92. The porn industry tries to glamourize itself on mainstream TV that it is good for relationships. Maybe it is, on the front-end, about 5%, the other 95% of the 100s of billions of dollars is made off of smut, slice-and-dice rereleases derived from original films, then recreated into the worse possible productions imaginable. The smut that’s out there does not promote love and lust in relationships… it promotes sickening disgustment, not a turn on at all, almost numbing. Wake up America, what Playboy, Hustler, Excalibur, AEBN, Sin City, Pleasure, VOD.com, and other adult porn industries really makes its millions off of is smut and child porn! You know, Vivid tried to sue AEBN for this crap and Pleasure tried to sue the satellite cable company of New Frontier Media that runs Ten channel, but when billions are flocking in by consumers… not even the production companies have the power to regulate this multitude of smut, nor the funds to go up against the billions made off this type of GREED, while the performers who had been mass exploited got how much for the smut… NOTHING, NOT A PENNY! And to you production companies I had worked for in a few films in 1997, warning, all your films with Kimi Ji footage has been sliced-and-diced by other porn companies, especially those with a reputation of taking other company’s footage and re-hashing it. Yeah, it’s your footage, I left the industry then and have not made any films in 14 years. Also, if Caballero past away and the contact address for him and production company’s I never worked for are all located at the same contact address… yet, these are using footages mainly from films of another production company from 1997 that shut down and therefore is no longer business licensed to have resold the footage… HOW COME THE FOOTAGE IS BEING PIRATED!! PIRATED!!!! Do ya’ll even care? 100 less smut films that shouldn’t be out on the market, and those actually are some of the worse of slice-and-diced, should be confiscated and removed, to say the least. These going-on’s compare to the treatment of slave laborers during the slave trade era, but at least the slaves got a roof over their heads and food on the table for their labors, at least they got something for their efforts, not just sheer misery. Let me give you an example, the contact for Excalibur and its domains is a ficticious name, so who then are you guys giving your credit card info to, it could even be funding terrorism for all you know, and the fan pages do not email to me, it’s a SCAM and emails the website instead. Also, it is sickening how Hustler’s owner can brag that he can pay some jailbird $500,000 to do porn, yet he hasn’t paid one penny for hundreds of performers for thousands of bootleg films being sold on his website, not even for promotional bios, while selling child porn on his site. I would love to point out to Playboy and Hustler where child porn is on their sites for sale!! Isn’t the sale of child porn illegal? It is available for sale on most of the millions of adult websites online, and no one in at the government level has come down on these websites and adult companies for it, only on every other issue except this one, WHICH IS THE MAIN ISSUE! If I were the government I would have put a stop to it in the first place, the smut films with no scripts nor value, and confiscated all funds made from it. The bootleg smut that has been coming out is not good for relationships. For example, a performer gets a script with lines to memorize, has a scene, thinking she picked a particular part to only perform certain tasks, and therefore their were choices, plus pay. The bootleg slice-and-dice films which half of which are automatically recreated by one of the porn retailers based on search terms… are heartless, being it is all mostly recreated by a computer machine mechanically. Why am I in smut with transvestites (no offense, but I’m female), horse and animal porn, and films where certain performers have past away due to Aids/HIV or are infected… when none of that was how the original films were made? Those were sliced into those type films using special effects, mechanically and heartlessly. Very inhumane! And you lawyers say that could not effect me? My careers in life and could only be compensated by proving loss of my current income? Shouldn’t I be compensated for reputable damages? Come on America, it’s ridiculous and no one should have to be treated that way. It is horrible! Besides, it causes people to be distracted from reality, causes violent behavior, causes men to treat women poorly or in an obnoxious manner, to disrespect their fellow comrads, and ruins the lives of the performers, especially those who are NOT doing porn. Some performers only entered porn for a year and only did maybe 30 films, some only one and realized it was a mistake. That does not mean that person deserves to be splattered and exploited across millions of pages online, no one deserves that type of treatment. Every human being has a right to make mistakes, but also has a right to move on and do other things, go back to school, get a normal job. Smut is like slave labor, because if a performer was going through hard times, did a few films, didn’t get paid much, VHS on and off the shelves for a short time was around, not streaming online footage exploited online over a million pages for all the world to see, without performer pay or permission. Are not slave labor contracts illegal in America, and therefore void? Isn’t there laws to protect people’s choices to agree or not to agree, and if you’re not being paid for performances, isn’t it therefore slave labor, especially if you would have never agreed to the manner in which the films coming out are presented? Why America, why allow it to occur, or are you just not aware what’s been going on? Those films were slice-and-diced into 400 or so unpaid rereleases per performer over a period of 14 years that the internet has been around, with current production dates, misleading consumers as to when the footage was made by not listing those films as compilations with true production dates or use of rerelease dates and presenting the films as new films while putting performers on boxcovers without boxcover pay nor agent fees, worse it’s not how the footage was made, what’s presented is a knock-off bootleg version of the worse smut imaginable, no scripting, no value, just smut. Where are the laws America? Why doesn’t anyone stand up and say it’s wrong, it’s inhumane! There are laws, but everyone turns a blind eye, and why… because if laptops and technology are to be sold, being porn is the main search of men, they allow it to happen and remain in their search engines while locating their main facilities abroad to avoid US taxes, so they can make more sales and be invisible behind ficticious names that are virtually immune to US regulations, just another form of GREED, and whose campaign funds are funded by it if anyone can donate online? Let’s hope whoever America picks for there next candidate, will be willing to see that it is wrong, what’s been going on. It doesn’t help that mainstream networks glamorize the unregulated internet, while not realizing the damages caused by it, that it’s not cool to be unregulated, instead it’s very damaging to many individuals. Caring starts at the bottom of the chain, and when something this horrible is allowed, the effects trickle up to every level in one form or another, and by then, it’s a mess. I’m so sick of hearing, “that’s Kimi Gee,” and other very annoying comments, when I haven’t even been doing porn the past 14 years, and it’s only because of the 400 smut streaming footage splattered online that I did not do, it’s disgusting that the government did not put a stop to the smut in the first place. If the 100s of 1000s of smut streaming footages are removed, what is the internet left with? A BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE! Men will still look up porn, but at least they’d be looking up what they’re supposed to, not disgusting bootleg remakes that causes violent behavior and the disrespectful treatment of women in an abusive manner. There’s a reason why many countries have simply decided to block porn completely, because most of it is SMUT, and it’s very damaging to the economical and psychological state of any nation!! I have one question for America, why allow it to continue that way? It simply isn’t right, AND the only way it will change is if it is PUBLIC POLICY, so either the PUBLIC as a whole stands up and says it’s WRONG, or this endless torture will NEVER STOP! If nothing else America, keep in mind all the smut online is pointing straight to America… which makes America look bad, think of that when you’re trying to generate funds in an already suffering economy, if you don’t care enough to fix the problem, why should funding sources care about you? It’s already happened where everyone in public positions would have to wonder if they were even getting another paycheck, if America was on the verge of bankruptcy, well, if the 100s of billions of smut was so great to the economy… WHY IS THE ECONOMY SUFFERING ANYHOW? DID YOU REALLY BENEFIT FROM LETTING IT OCCUR? If you didn’t stand up to it and make an effort to but a stop to it, you let it occur! And why should it even be your problem… the catch 22 of the laws state that it must be “PUBLIC POLICY” in order to enforce change upon the matter of SMUT! I’m sure all the smut producers, many being foreign and preying off of US-made footage, including the out-sourcing company that bragged how it makes millions while out-sourcing the worse editting of footage to some foreign worker for $5 pay a day to make smut while no one even considers that the reason no one edits it that way here is because it makes America look bad, of course the performers did not agree to it, it’s dated fraudulently, and it’s simply wrong… all these sitting back drenched in there billions of dollars laughing at America while the economy suffers, laughing in the darkest glooms of your economical destruction because you all never even bothered to do anything about it. You can still change what’s been going on! The first step is public awareness. I’ve taken the time to put this out so you know. I won’t tell you what films, because I’m not going to have a bunch of petafiles using the links to purchase those. Just know, all films dated year 1999 until present date were either derived from child pornography or films from year 1997, listed mostly by production companies other than that Kimi Gee had worked for, have been sliced-and-diced in a horribly unbecoming manner that is very damaging. Please people, how could it NOT be damaging? Really? Now, please take the time to write your congressmen, consumer affairs divisions, business licensing to ask why it’s allowed, the Federal Trade Commission, the FBI, the Labor Department, advocates, and anyone you can think of… to let them know that you don’t agree the smut should be there. I’ve already wrote to them! Nothing will be done, until enough individuals step up and says it’s wrong! Having a contract with a performer to pay a performer for a film, plus extra if going on boxcover, plus separate contract if using a biography to promote A PARTICULAR FILM only, means: The contract is for the original film and compilations from it, promotional material for that film, boxcover only if paid for it originally, and nothing more, especially since performer’s agent only got a fee for that scene of that film and no other films. You want to put out another new release with a new production date of NOW? Be prepared to pay for that film, plus the boxcover, plus damages for your lies about when the footage was produced and recreating the footage in an unexceptable manner without script in the worse possible manner in all of existance. Law enforcement could care less, the public could care less or maybe you do care and if so write your politicians and enforcers, the Feds could care less, the US government could care less until enough of the public reacts in the matter, hundreds of lawyers who have already been faxed could care less unless I stick a huge paycheck in front of them and it would still not get anywhere… but the porn industry and retailers will HAVE TO PAY FOR LABOR AND DAMAGES… for those 400 films and any others exploited all over the internet on millions of webpages. This unregulated activity of bootleg smut MUST BE PAID FOR!! The system has failed, but that doesn’t mean there is not a solution. Some attorneys say what I’m telling you is unclear, in general, or meaningless, but I doubt those attorneys find smut disturbing and probably get off on it. Wake up, America, tell me, DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I’M SAYING? Am I not typing in English? If nothing else, since bars and liquor stores have to card people that they are age 21 to buy alcohol, then why do you not push for Federal and State laws that porn retailers and websites cannot publically display nudity and porn until after it is provable that the party is an adult of age 18. Bars and liquor stores don’t just ask, are you 21? Any kid or teenager under 18 could say, yeah I’m an adult… and look at all the disgusting smut online. Get a life America, wake up! And I want the child pornography and rereleases derived from it removed from each and every porn site online, enough is enough. Just cause Traci Lords is a blonde, doesn’t mean since I’m half Asian I’m not a US citizen. I am! I have rights, and it’s time for America to let the government know how you feel about it! I can’t do it alone, and it’s been an ongoing battle for many, many years. There is always a solution! Stand up to it America, and take back your dignity! And when you vote for your next president, make sure you don’t vote for someone who is brain-washed by smut and won’t do a darn thing about it. It doesn’t benefit society… it destroys it!

  93. I have no idea how ‘genuine’ the above comment is (I can’t even read through it all because massive blocks of unformatted text just make my eyes hurt!). There is a Kimi Gee listed up on the IMDb, but who knows?

    I let it (but not a seemingly identical comment on another post) through, not because I particularly agree with it or indorse it – I’m not sure what the main point is supposed to be: the lack of quality in porn, porn being pirated (this would be irrelevant to porn performers as they are only paid once, not by sales), or child porn (pornography featuring adult women who look underage is protected as freedom of speech in the US) – but because it may be genuinely from an ex porn performer, and anyway, I wouldn’t want to be accused of censorship or anything like that!

    Kimi,

    You are welcome to start a conversation here, but please show some consideration for your potential readers and leave some line breaks in your text, I wasn’t making a joke when I said I couldn’t read your comment, my eyes literally can’t focus properly on such a massive block of text (this is common for a lot of computer users, because reading from a screen is different to reading from paper – notice that on-line newspapers put line breaks between paragraphs while the print versions do not).

    Thanks,
    A

  94. If someone *looks* under-aged, but is not, do you believe this to violate child pornography law?

    What about the opposite? Someone who is 16, but looks 35?

    I’d like to hear a further explanation on the ethics involved in these situations.

  95. Hello Val,

    My understanding is that the law in the US changed recently, or else the law was clarified by a test case, to say that as long as a woman was over the age of consent, it is legal for her to appear in pornography, even if she appears to be underage. In the UK, I believe, the actual age of the person is irrelevant, it’s child porn if it looks like a child is involved, including cases of digitally manipulated images.

    If someone is under the age of consent, it’s child abuse/statutory rape regardless of how old the child ‘appears’ – you are forgetting, it seems, that such images are records of actual events.

    Child abuse is child abuse, no matter how old the victim ‘appears’, to suggest otherwise is to be a (child) rape apologist.

  96. Do you think that “looking under-aged” is somewhat odd? *Made* to look can be proven (pig tails, school girl outfits, etc), but looking that way naturally…?

    Who decides when someone “looks” younger than they are? How does one establish a reliable, non-laughable standard for the “proper way to look when one is such-and-such an age”?

    While this is reasonable in its motives, it seems a bizarre and unreliable thing to standardize for use in a court room.

  97. Looking underage means being ‘child sized’ and slight, with underdeveloped secondary sexual characteristics: slim hips, flat chested, no muscles, no fat, ‘small neat’ genitalia, all body hair removed. This is ‘enhanced’ by dressing the women in clothing associated with young girls, and with child-like behaviour and body language.

    Asian women are frequently used in this ‘pseudo child’ porn in the US, as, compared to westerners (and I am making a very broad generalisation here – I’m reporting on racist stereotypes, not endorsing them) they tend to be tiny and child-like (or the ones ending up in the porn are anyway).

    I imagine the standard used in court would be whether a ‘reasonable person’, viewing such pornography, would believe they are viewing a child.

  98. [...] sexuality—it gives us a narrow view of our sexuality and actually voids ability to experiment. It normalizes sexual violence. Now, obviously, like I already mentioned, I’m not saying that porn is the bottom line for [...]

  99. [...] Feminists Pro-Sex, Anti-Porn: The Blog of Anti-Porn London What’s Wrong With PornographyAbout UsContact UsBin [...]

  100. Please keep up the fantastic work you’re doing with this blog. It has been reassuring and energizing to read so many views that are close to my own – coherently, powerfully and unreservedly expressed.
    Someone who as been pro-sex anti-porn from a while, or has a grounding in feminist ideas, will spot that your excellent summary does imply that pornography impacts men negatively as well. However, it occurs to me that for someone who has only recently started to think on these lines, such as a man who has been a consumer of pornography, this post might be more inclusive if that was articulated explicitly.
    As a woman, the incredible damage pornography does to women is horrifying to me – but what it does to men is frightening too. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for someone who grew up consuming pornography to overcome what it has done to their character and worldview. And the men that don’t consume pornography out of choice are surely subject to much peer ridicule and pressure – at the very least.
    Patriarchy and the gendered discrimination that comes out of it make men too less than a whole, free human being. I’ve always felt that saying that out loud makes a bulb switch on in men’s heads who would otherwise scoff at anything that has the words feminism or women’s rights or gender in it.
    Personally, I see great value in including what pornography does to men in as many words in a piece of writing as important as this. I can see it connect better with the many men who find themselves here, on their own or directed by the women in their lives. I can see it have greater impact on what kind of people they are, what they think of equality and how they treat women.

  101. dont forget serial killers ALWAYS blame porn for what they do.

  102. To be honest, I don’t think this is a very useful anti-porn argument. Even if 100% of serial killers were porn users, the vast majority of porn users (as any porn apologist will point out) do not become serial killers.

    Porn helps reinforce patriarchy; it helps reinforce rape culture and callousness towards women, by showing women who say ‘no’ when they mean ‘yes’, and who enjoy being hurt and violated; it helps reinforce male entitlement by showing women as only existing for men to use. Porn helps create and maintain a society where women are second class and where violence against women is seen as ‘natural’ and ‘inevitable’, and such a society will produce serial killers.

  103. Porn in its current form may help maintain patriarchy, by reflecting the same patriarchal values found in most media, but it did not help create it. Patriarchy pre-dates pornography, especially widespread pornography, by centuries or even millennia. You could say pornography “re-creates” patriarchy, but it did not create it.

  104. You’re splitting semantic hairs here; society isn’t static or monolithic, and neither is patriarchy, society now isn’t the same as it was 100 years ago, and neither is patriarchy, patriarchy adapts and survives.

    Pornography helped create 20th and 21st century patriarchy.

    I’m getting a strange sense of deja vu

    Yes, patriarchy existed before the current global, industrialised sex industry, before pornography as it exists now. Patriarchy is not a monolith, it changes and adapts and varies across time and space; in Iran, wearing make-up can get you arrested, so wearing make-up becomes an act of rebellion, while in the west, a lack of make-up can be penalised, but both are products of patriarchy.

    Men have always had ways of communicating to each other the correct way to treat women; pornography is the current way of doing that for our globalised, atomised age. It’s no coincidence that the increase in the availability, mainstreaming and brutality of pornography has coincided with (white, western, middle-class, able-bodied) women making social and economic gains, it is a parallel back-lash against women’s advancements.

    The reality of patriarchy now is that it is inseparably entwined with, and propped up by, the sex industry. Attacking pornography is attacking patriarchy [...] pornography, as it exists, for real, in the real world, is a product and a prop of patriarchy.

  105. Perfect explanations! I totally adore this page and visit frequently. However, I’m from Blogger so I don’t always get notifications. I have a question though: do you guys have a Facebook page? I would love to keep updated and “like” you from there! I share your posts all the time on my personal FB profile as well as our Anti-Pornography group profile :) I’d love to connect with you there, if you’re on FB!

  106. Hi Kendra, thanks for your comment, and your ongoing support!

    There isn’t a Facebook page I’m afraid, and that isn’t something I’m likely to do in future as FB gets more and more intrusive and controlling.

  107. You take an AWFUL lot of liberties here, don’t you? I understand the point you’re trying to make, but one can’t simply state their own beliefs as absolute facts to prove a point. The most egregious example was this little gem:

    Men define themselves as being whatever is not a woman, in order to be a man it is necessary for there to be a subordinate group of women for men to compare themselves to and feel superior to.

    In what world do you have the authority to, in one sentence, condemn an pigeon-hole half the species into unenlightened, ignorant, insecure children that see the world as black or white.

    Your entire article is steeped in these generalizations that contain no support, draw on what I imagine is limited experience, and a clear agenda. For every video you claim shows women getting “dominated”, I bet I could find 10 demonstrating the complete opposite.

    Your argument has some weight, and not all of your points are entirely off the mark; however, the cavalier, unsubstantiated, opinion-as-fact nature of your writing unfortunately cuts the legs out from whatever merit your point had to start with.

  108. Oh no, a dudebro is trying to put me in my place! What ever shall I do!?

    You take an AWFUL lot of liberties here, don’t you? I understand the point you’re trying to make, but one can’t simply state their own beliefs as absolute facts to prove a point.

    Oh no, a woman expressing herself, how dare she! She is stating her beliefs as if they could possibly have some weight in the world, I will, as a man, express myself, working under the assumption that my words, of course, are full of truth, because I’m a man and men’s opinions are far more important than women’s.

    In what world do you have the authority to, in one sentence, condemn an pigeon-hole half the species into unenlightened, ignorant, insecure children that see the world as black or white.

    You’ve missed the point dudebro (no surprises there), I am not condemning half the human race as “unenlightened, ignorant, insecure children”, a lot of men are violent, manipulative, sadistic and vicious, and they are smart enough to get away with it over and over again.

    Your entire article is steeped in these generalizations that contain no support, draw on what I imagine is limited experience, and a clear agenda.

    ‘Limited experience’ that’s a funny one you arrogant sack of shit, I’ve only lived within the patriarchy for decades, but what do women know about their own condition hey? Aren’t I lucky you’ve come along to try to enlighten me with your man-wisdom.

    And yes, I do have a clear agenda, liberating women from male oppression.

    For every video you claim shows women getting “dominated”, I bet I could find 10 demonstrating the complete opposite.

    Oh dear oh dear, that old canard, you’re not winning any prizes with that one!

    The existence of pornography showing men being degraded does nothing to disprove that we live in a male dominated society. Such porn is made by men and for men, and the men who get off on it get off on being feminised on being treated like a woman; if being a woman wasn’t considered the lowest possible state, then being treated ‘like a women’ would hold no sexual thrill.

    If sex, under patriarchy, wasn’t characterised as inequality, as degradation, then men wouldn’t be getting off on men being degraded either.

    And, also, nice erasure of the sexual abuse of women in the porn industry there – those women being subjected to double anals, or ass-to-mouth, they aren’t really being hurt, that’s only my ‘claim’ – you, with your man-wisdom, ‘know’ that women love being treated like that really, after all, they ‘choose’ to be there right? And they get paid loads of money too, every dudebro knows that.

    Your argument has some weight, and not all of your points are entirely off the mark

    Aw, head-pats from a dudebro!

    however, the cavalier, unsubstantiated, opinion-as-fact nature of your writing unfortunately cuts the legs out from whatever merit your point had to start with.

    This is so funny, you’ve just done exactly what you’re accused me of; I’ve got over four years worth of blog posts, including quotes from pornographers, porn performers, and porn users backing up my claims.

    The problem is, you are an arrogant sack-of-shit dudebro and you think the “unsubstantiated, opinion-as-fact” vomit you’ve left on my blog deserves to be taken seriously.

  109. Yes, I’m good at this.

    Stunned awe is the appropriate response.

  110. Way to go antiplondon, WAY TO GO!

  111. I’m SO excited to have stumbled upon this blog. Antiplondon, you are the bombest! I thoroughly appreciate and admire your prowess as a thoughtful, well expressed, intelligent and insightful educator and defender of radical feminism :)

  112. Hi JaidApril,

    Thank you for your lovely comment, I do my best!

    A

  113. Don’t throw me in Dante’s Internet for the late comment..

    First,
    A (radical) feminist is:
    1. Sex-negative
    2. Anti-porn
    3. Pro-choice

    Radfem is thereby necessarily transcritical.
    One who does not adhere to these is not radfem. The individual does not get to simply “define herself”. The coveted titles (such as Radfem, Occupy, Anonymous, Tea Party, Allies, etc) go to the winners of the most pertinent debates. Names mean things. There are prerequisites involved.

    Second,
    Getting really sick of libertarian getting thrown around like a pejorative. It ain’t. Do libertarian-ism and individualism go hand in hand? Yep. As usual, must recommend Ayn Rand. (Cue the RABBLERABBLERABBLEwhinewhinestomppout.)

    It’s true that she observed BDSM at least through her characters. That is only because she did not follow her Objectivism to it’s logical end. Just because you’re the first to wrap up an ideology in a clean little box with a bow on top doesn’t mean you’ll immediately be able to follow it all overnight. Feminism = Objectivism as it applies to women. Dig.
    The Marxists and recovering “progressives” out there are going to have to realize that we start with the SELF and go out from there. Before you have a network or a commune, you have yourself. There is nothing complicated about this. So stop whining about individualism. The ones who get it aren’t going to stop their own individualism, and the whiners are just slowing them*selves* down.

    Whatever beanbrain up there it was who asked why “more feminists aren’t anti-pron”, let me holla atchoo-
    It is not women’s job to fix men. And yet we do a lot of that anyway for our own safety and sanity. So do not, especially if you are some dude, attempt a call-to-arms on behalf of feminism. Men need to gtfot and police EACH OTHER. Hope that sinks in.

  114. The above comment was let through for the entertainment value only.

    This person is a loon, and not a radical feminist.

    “The individual does not get to simply “define herself”. [...] Names mean things. There are prerequisites involved.”

    That much I will agree with; this person is no radical feminist.

    I have a sneaking suspicion it’s another one of Kitty Stryker’s friends.

  115. [...] a global, $97 billion dollar a year industry known as pornography turns violence against women into public entertainment for men. We live in a world in which violence against women is not only normal; it’s also [...]

  116. Malala,this Pakistani education activist is my hero.
    Education is the begining of girl power.
    Parents should instill the importance of getting education with morals.Moral education equips and secures her future against male charmers who pretends to be acting in her best interest when what they actually wanted was to take advantage of her.Some gifts, some pleasures may as well qualify as selling your future.

  117. Girls do not get abused because they ‘lack morals’. I’m sure you mean well but I’m afraid your comment comes across as victim blaming.

    ‘Morals’ will not protect a girl who is sold into sexual slavery by her parents, nor will ‘morals’ protect a woman tricked by traffickers posing as job-brokers.

    Poverty plays a massive role in making women and girls more vulnerable to abuse, ‘morals’ are not much use to a global south girl who needs an older ‘boyfriend’ to buy her basic necessities, like sanitary towels.

    Men, on the other hand, really do need to develop some morality.

  118. Thank you. I hope you will use this blog to inform your opinions on this and related feminist subjects.

  119. May I recommend BROKEN BRIDE. An intriguing true life story of an African girl,dealing with violence against women, rape and many other issues that affects women globally.
    Available on amzon. Click link below:
    [link removed]

    Anne a promising model who detested the poverty of her family,was forced to marry Ken,a millionaire older playboy keen on spicing up his sex life,using his wealth as a bait and luring young blooded girls seemed like the best idea. It came at a cost when Anne developed a dying hunger for sex and outlandish neediness to be loved after what looked like her first trial marriage with a millionaire husband crashed at an early age.
    Discover the true life story of a broken African queen,gripping and intriguing from the start

  120. Fictionwriter2, you appear to have linked to some kind of ‘erotic’ novel, which is not appropriate for this blog.

    There are plenty of documentaries out there describing the conditions of women around the world, we don’t need titillating fictional accounts.

  121. This’s not an erotic novel,but a book which condemns violence and forced marriages against women happening in some African communities.

  122. Well it looks like titillating exploitation to me! And the people (men) viewing this book seem to think so too, as they are subsequently viewing/buying books with titles like ‘Money Makin’ Mamas’ and ‘The Shattered Vixen- WHOOTY CA$H (The Whooty Ca$h series)’, many with soft-core covers.

    Women can tell their own stories, we don’t need men making up fictionalised accounts of us which allow men to simultaneously get off on our degradation, and pat themselves on the back about how much they condemn this ‘immorality’.

  123. Don’t think you are always right about all your opinions,not all writers are biased.
    The taste of the pudding is in the eating.Don’t judge a book by its cover or by your feelings when you have refused to read it.

  124. Please go hawk your wares somewhere else, I have no idea why you thought you would have an audience on an anti-porn radical feminist blog.

    If it isn’t a titillating exploitation pulp, you may want to look into how it’s being branded on Amazon, because it is being sold there as such.

    (And yes, it’s completely obvious that you are the author, it’s an e-book that only came out this month, and has no reviews on Amazon, who else even knows about it?)

  125. Also, I am not judging your book by my ‘feelings’, I am making a rational judgment based on considerable past experience.

    You are being misogynist by trying to imply that I am some silly, irrational woman who relies on vague ‘feelings’ by refusing to agree with you.

  126. @fictionwriter2

    “…using his wealth as a bait and luring young blooded girls seemed like the best idea. It came at a cost when Anne developed a dying hunger for sex”.

    How about judging it by your own description of it in the synopsis? Based on your OWN WORDS the book sounds like sensationalist hogwash. If it’s “not an erotic novel”, why are you using terms like “young blooded girls” and “dying hunger for sex”?? It doesn’t sound like a book with anything close to a grasp on the brutal realities of such situations for the girls themselves, written completely through a male gaze and very much pandering to a male fantasy of the situation.

    It IS completely inappropriate for you to try and link this to an ANTI-PORNOGRAPHY site. And it was incredibly lazy and foolish of you to try to flog your book here! I am not unfamiliar with trying to sell e-books on the internet. NOBODY takes kindly to people who try and spam their sites with inappropriate links, and from your very own description, yours could not be less appropriate for this one. Not that this any kind of place for people to spruik their wares in the first place!

    And P.S. Stop gaslighting when you are called out for it.

  127. I say we steal porn from the stores, and burn our own radical feminist content onto it! Then distribute it for free across the world!

  128. I am very happy I found this blog. It’s important to clearly describe the effects and dangers of pornography, without being blind to the fact that they’re everywhere. The ending in particular is very powerful in its realism. Many women would dismiss the anti-porn agenda by saying that they don’t consume porn and they know the difference between porn and real life. but the majority of men you interact with, date AND sleep with, consume porn that has changed their view of women more or less. That is the truth here.

  129. Hello Maria, and thank you for the lovely comment, I hope you continue to find this blog a useful resource.

  130. I am a man who enjoys pornography.

    I have never, not in my 20 years of watching porn ever thought I could have sex with a woman the way porn stars have sex. I don’t think most guys do. I think most guys know the difference between porn and real life.

    Ironically enough, two of the women I have been with, and I have not been with many, have asked me to choke them.

    I was surprised and taken aback by this. Shocked even.

    I think your argument is invalid.

    Instead of getting rid of porn… we could perhaps have better parenting? Teach our ‘impressionable’ youth that what you see on the telly is not what is a highly skewed vision of what it is really like?

    Or maybe, we can curb hypergamy and then there will be a more balanced dating scene? leaving less people to turn to other form of (unwanted) expression?

    Just a thought..

  131. I strongly suspect that you are making up even your limited sexual conquests. You want to know why I suspect this? It is because you use terminology like ‘hypergamy’ and ‘unbalanced dating scene’ – these are not the vocabulary of your average porn-loving dude who just happened to stumble across this blog while he was searching the internet for porn, it is the vocabulary of an MRA.

    What do MRA’s spend a large amount of time doing? They spend a large amount of time whining about how they can’t get laid because the mythical ‘alpha males’ are monopolising the pussy supply. MRA’s hate ‘sluts’, but only because even ‘sluts’ won’t have sex with them.

    Even if you’re not making it up, so what? You claim you’ve never sexually assaulted anyone – you want a gold medal for that?

    That some women are masochists and can get off on their own sub-human status is hardly surprising, given that masochism is sold to us as the only authentic state for a woman to be in; from Beauty and the Beast to Fifty Shades of Shite, we have this forced down our throats from early childhood.

    You think education is important? Well done you, do you want a Nobel Prize to go with your gold medal for not being a rapist? I already have ‘Sex and Relationships Education’ as a category in the side bar, so you’re not actually telling me anything I don’t already know.

    And speaking of education, you get an F- for grammar; try parsing this sentence again:

    “Teach our ‘impressionable’ youth that what you see on the telly is not what is a highly skewed vision of what it is really like?”

  132. I’m not MRA. I’m MGTOW.

    And I didn’t “stumble” on this site.. I purposely go out and read opposing points of view. Occasionally, I post my opinion hoping for intelligent discourse..

    Re-read what I wrote. Then Re-read what you wrote… which one of us has a problem with dissenting opinions?

    Thank you for your ad hominem attacks and shaming. People like you help to prove the obtuse ideology of feminism and the modern woman.

  133. Hey shit-for-brians, try looking up what parse actually means.

  134. MGTOW are just a sub-species of MRAs, don’t you even know that much?

    And shouldn’t it be MGHOW when talking about oneself in the singular?

    Collect another F-

  135. And isn’t it funny how a ‘Man Going His Own Way‘ is so desperate to engage a woman in conversation, and feels so entitled to be given attention and taken seriously, when the ‘intelligent discourse’ he has to offer is so tired and worn out; how arrogant he is, to think that he was making some new and important point when he was repeating what I’ve heard dozens of times before!

  136. Do you want to actually address my points? Or are you going to continue to insult me?

    I honestly feel sorry for you.. All that anger can’t be healthy.

  137. “I have seen time and time again that arguing with a feminist is an exercise in futility. You can make clear, concise points, and their response will usually not address even one of them. They will ignore your words and just try to use you as a punching bag while stating several times in different terms that you are simply full of shit. It never becomes an intelligent debate, it’s just like talking to a child.”

    [link removed]

  138. Are you going to demonstrate that you understand what ‘parse’ means?

    (Here’s a hint, it has nothing to do with disagreeing with the ideas you are expressing.)

  139. Seriously, are you kidding me? You are going to fixate on ‘parse’? What is wrong with you? Nevermind.. you are a feminist. That’s whats wrong with you.

  140. You know what I think? I think you realize that if we did have a real debate on the issue, you would lost. Hence why you are completely avoiding any real debate, and instead choosing to play this childish trolling game.

  141. This is so funny!

    A ‘man going his own way’ is coming back to my blog again and again demanding attention, then he accuses me of ‘trolling’ (how can one troll ones own blog?)

    What’s to debate obmon? You said you weren’t a rapist, and I offered you a head-pat; you said women were masochists, and I said that wasn’t a surprise given that we lived in a patriarchy; you said education was important, and I said I already knew that.

    You’re the one throwing a little tantrum because you’re not getting the response you want – did you honestly think a radical feminist would be grateful for your man-thoughts?

  142. I didnt say i wasn’t a rapist. I said the idea that porn leads to rapists is asanine.

    I didn’t say women were masochists (you did), I made a comment about how different people enjoy different types of sex. So to assume porn leads to bad behavior is to ignore the natural inclination of different people. Do you recommend we ban people’s thoughts next? or perhaps all forms of sexuality that you don’t ascribe to?

    I said education was important, because parenting is more important than trying to ban pornography (censorship).

    You aren’t trolling your own blog. You are trolling me with your ridiculous insulting replies.

    And grateful? No.. but open to discussion? One can only hope..

  143. So you’re saying you are a rapist!? I’m taking this as a confession, and investigating which authority to send your IP address to!

    How is wanting to be choked during sex not masochism? Do you understand what masochism means?

    Sexuality doesn’t form in a vacuum, nobody is born with the inclination to be choked during sex any more than they are born with the inclination to buy Nike trainers or eat a McDonald’s burger.

    The media we are exposed to has an effect on us, if it didn’t, there wouldn’t be any advertising, and there wouldn’t be any politics, religion, art or philosophy either. Why assume pornography, which backs up its message with an orgasm, is somehow different from any other media?

  144. Seriously.. quit with the twisting of words.. I was merely pointing out what YOU were saying.. but anyway.. best to ignore that attempt at getting arise out me..

    finally some clarity in thought..

    You say we are not born with the inclination for masochism or McDonald’s burgers.. but this doesn’t fit in with the science of economics.

    The reason that McDonald’s exists and sells so well, is because there is a demand for it. The consumer makes a choice, and a vote, through his puchasing power. By buying hardcore porn, or double cheesebrugers, they are signaling to the business world that there is a demand for their products.

    Which brings us to the real question, as pertaining to the subject of this forum.

    Will banning pornography stop the demand for masochistic scenes, or will the demand look elsewhere to satisfy their “inclinations”.

    Instead of concentrating so much of your effort, attempting to ban porn, why not invest time and effort in understanding why porn exists in the first place.

    And, because men are rapists is a cop out, and you know it.

    Masochistic porn is about powerlessness; an attempt by a man to “take” what he feels he has a right to.

    We need to be focusing on the social factors that create such frustration in men, not take away the only outlet they have, which will only force them to seek these realities for real. Rather than being momentary lapses in emotional integrity, quickly hidden away from reality.

    You see, I agree with you. Porn has gone too far. When production companies like X-Art become niche, rather than mainstream, then there must be a deeper social issue at play.

    Focusing on porn itself, is the lazy acedemics attempt at dismissal of the real issues that plague society. Namely, the extreme unbalanced nature of the male-female dynamic.

    But hey, at least we have moved on from insults and shaming and can have something of a real conversation on the subject.

  145. “The reason that McDonald’s exists and sells so well, is because there is a demand for it. The consumer makes a choice, and a vote, through his puchasing power. By buying hardcore porn, or double cheesebrugers, they are signaling to the business world that there is a demand for their products.”

    That’s far too simplistic a take on it, what about people who want to eat well, but can’t afford anything better than McDonalds? What about people who live in a culture that says your only value comes through owning designer gear? None of these things are innate to human existence.

    Pornography is a product of patriarchy, and it is also propaganda for patriarchy, the two enforce each other.

    “Will banning pornography stop the demand for masochistic scenes, or will the demand look elsewhere to satisfy their “inclinations”.”

    No, banning pornography alone is not enough. I don’t actually spend any real time on this blog calling for law changes, the internet makes any such law impractical anyway. I want to challenge porn culture, that means challenging the idea that porn is ‘harmless fun’, challenging the idea that the women in porn are having a great time, supporting proper sex education; it also means challenging all other aspects of patriarchy, like rape culture (which is perpetuated by pornography), lack of reproductive rights, and global economic inequalities for women and girls.

    “Instead of concentrating so much of your effort, attempting to ban porn, why not invest time and effort in understanding why porn exists in the first place.”

    Where am I doing/not doing these things? Please point to the specific blog posts.

    “Masochistic porn is about powerlessness; an attempt by a man to “take” what he feels he has a right to.”

    That’s an incomplete understanding of masochism, masochism is also about a love of pain and degradation, not just powerlessness.

    “We need to be focusing on the social factors that create such frustration in men, not take away the only outlet they have, which will only force them to seek these realities for real. Rather than being momentary lapses in emotional integrity, quickly hidden away from reality.”

    It’s very obvious what causes sadism in men, it’s the product of living in a patriarchy that eroticises power, control, inequality and violence, coupled with male privilege and male entitlement.

    “You see, I agree with you. Porn has gone too far. When production companies like X-Art become niche, rather than mainstream, then there must be a deeper social issue at play.”

    No shit Sherlock!

    “Focusing on porn itself, is the lazy acedemics attempt at dismissal of the real issues that plague society. Namely, the extreme unbalanced nature of the male-female dynamic.”

    And we’re back to MRA whining about the pussy supply. What you are saying, in a very underhanded manner, is that violence against women is women’s fault, because we don’t put out enough.

  146. “And we’re back to MRA whining about the pussy supply. What you are saying, in a very underhanded manner, is that violence against women is women’s fault, because we don’t put out enough.”

    Pussy supply? Do you have to be so crass? No where in my comment did I say it was the fault of women.. i just said its unbalanced.

    You are choosing to read what you want to read into my posts..

    “I want to challenge porn culture, that means challenging the idea that porn is ‘harmless fun’, challenging the idea that the women in porn are having a great time, supporting proper sex education..”

    Supply and demand applies here again. Stopping the supply, won’t stop the demand. Not sure how many times I can say that..

    —————————

    Patriarchy, patriarchy, patriarchy.. everything is the fault of the patriarchy..

    The patriarchy doesn’t exist. Never has. Both sexes were confined to gender roles. Both genders were oppressed.

    The women’s movement has allowed women to detach themselves from male authority, but men’s obligation to women (their own gender role) has only been reinforced.

    I urge you to read Warren Farrel’s book, The Myth of Male Power.

    You are literally just repeating, verbatim, feminist rhetoric. I can’t argue with a woman who blames everything on the mythical patriarchy.

    Thanks for your time anyway. Good luck.

  147. HA! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

  148. I’ve seen plenty of porn that is not exploitative of women at all. NOT AT ALL!

    It isn’t hate speech, it isn’t misogynistic, it isn’t male supremacist, it doesn’t celebrate inequality, it doesn’t give men unrealistic expectations of their female sex partners, it doesn’t encourage violence against women, it doesn’t feature women saying NO when they mean YES, it has never caused a woman to be raped or sex-trafficked, and it has never caused a woman to be fired from her non-porn workplace… Unless she was watching it on the job ;)

    I am pretty confident about this… Because these films have no women involved whatsoever! They feature men having oral, anal and manual sex with each other in a variety of preposterous fantasy situations. I suppose there may be women behind the camera… To be honest I haven’t bothered to check the credits, but how harmful could it be for a woman to be in what has traditionally been a male role, that is, calling the shots?

    If your perspective is that porn is wrong because it is harmful to women, then you should have no problem with gay porn that is produced by consenting adult men.

    And if you are fine with men appearing in porn, but oppose women appearing in porn, then in effect you are denying women the same opportunities as men, and you should collect your laminated patriarchy certificate from the nearest misogyny centre asap.

    @ Kimi Gee, if, as you say, you can point out the child porn on playboy and hustler, then please report it to iwf.org.UK (you don’t have to be a UK or EU citizen). They are funded by the EU, and have enormous influence on the UK gov. Even where the material is hosted overseas, if it is accessible in the UK, the UK gov still has power to bring heavy penalties to the publishers, as has happened with Playboy before (though not with child porn, rather with other material deemed obscene under UK law). I wholeheartedly recommend you take action asap; each second you delay puts more kids in danger. If you DON’T report it then you are practically a child rapist yourself.

  149. How does showing a man ‘saying no when he means yes’ not contribute to rape culture? (You know men rape other men too right?)

    How is showing a masculine, dominant man degrading a feminised, othered man (ie, treating him ‘like a woman’), not male supremacist and not misogynistic?

    How is having a woman in a role of abusive power a good thing?

    How do you know the men in the porn you watch have freely chosen to be there? How do you know if they are really happy with what they are doing? Because they smile for the camera?

    Where did I say I was fine with men appearing in porn?

    Kimi Gee’s comment is well over a year old, do you really think she is checking this post every day, waiting for your smug, self-righteous advice?

  150. [EDIT: Who do you think you are, you arrogant sack of shit? Do you actually think I'm interested in your opinion, do you actually think I'm going to plough through a 1000 word+ essay then answer your numbered points on demand? Do you think you are entitled to my time and effort?]

  151. I am a person with opposing opinions presenting counter-examples of how banning porn tramples on people’s freedoms and might not be a good idea.

    I actually think you host a comments section on your site in order that people can leave replies (as are solicited at the bottom of the page). It is your choice to engage with anyone who replies, or delete their comments outright if you think they have nothing to add. Deleting a comment AND flaming the commenter seems weak, since nobody knows what you are upset about.

    Since you did reply, and ask me several questions, I answered them. I didn’t attack anyone, swear, or make bigoted remarks, so while it is entirely your call, the EDIT is suspect to me. It’s not that you are required to answer all my points, more that I would like them to be added to the conversation. Unfortunately you seem less interested in that than in controlling the message.

    In any case, please delete this message once you have read it, as it is of no relevance to anyone but you and I, and like your flaming attack on me above, it adds nothing to the porn debate.

  152. See you’re doing it again, condescending, making demands, acting like you’re entitled to try to manipulate and control what I do.

    I can answer any point you care to make, what I refuse to do is have 1000+ words dumped on me (including at least one very patronising mansplaination, about how in-boxes work), along with a numbered list of points you want responses to.

  153. Not making any demands, just a polite request as nobody here is interested in a flame war or the explanations and qualifications that inevitably follow. But if you want to leave my comment up, perhaps to exercise the one power you have over me, go ahead. As I said it is your choice.

    If, in using the word mansplaination, you are assuming my gender is male by my communication style, then I ask you to consider how sexist it is to do that. I lay out my arguments in a straightforward style because misinterpretation and straw men responses are very common online and in gender fora in particular. I did not think it would be a problem given the length of other comments here, some of which run much, much longer than mine yet remain uncensored.

    Perhaps I can make my central point more concise. Some people enjoy porn as part of safe, loving relationships, harm nobody, and make a modest profit from the sale of this material. Why do you want to punish them for crimes others have committed by outlawing the material they produce? Would it not be better to separate out the factors that attack the problem more directly, for example by educating people in sexual safety, by investigating pornographers to weed out the abusive ones, and by innovating new technologies that improve consumer safety or remove the need for live models?

    I am sure dedicated minds can find even more promising solutions. Using the banhammer seems to me the first resort of the uncreative and inflexible dogmatist. We also know that a ban would create a black market, an unregulated nightmare that would leave more victims in its wake.

  154. msbj, why do you bring gay porn on a feminist site where the discussion is about how porn affects women? Do you seriously think that there is no difference on how porn affect men and women? There are similarities between het porn and gay porn as they both celebrate the male orgasm. Feminists have also pointed out how the same dominant/sumbissive paradigm is also found, with the submissive one in gay porn acting the feminine part. In gay porn, however, the roles are not fixed and the participants are interchangeables; everybody being males, they can act either part and the objective being the male orgasm, everybody is entitled to it. For gay porn to be further compared to het porn, you would have to have two distinct groups represented in fixed different roles. Now imagine if in gay porn, the recurrent pattern would be to have black males being penetrated by multiple white men, slapped, choked, covered in bodily fluid and called racial slurs, with only the white men having orgasms. Would you say there is no racism here, that porn is the same for black and white men? I am just tired of people bringing up gay porn when we discuss misogyny.

  155. mjsb,

    “If, in using the word mansplaination, you are assuming my gender is male by my communication style, then I ask you to consider how sexist it is to do that.”

    I did suspect that you may be female from your first comment, as many women are active consumers of male-on-male porn, and want ‘their’ porn to be different. But the lengthy, arrogant, patronising comment that followed makes me believe that you are male. Since you haven’t said: actually, I’m a woman, so nyer nyer nyer I’m going to stick with my current assessment, and I don’t give a shit if you think that’s ‘sexist’.

    “Some people enjoy porn as part of safe, loving relationships, harm nobody, and make a modest profit from the sale of this material. Why do you want to punish them for crimes others have committed by outlawing the material they produce?”

    Hang on, in your first comment you were defending gay porn, all gay porn, now I assume you’re talking about ‘amateur’ porn produced by couples (presumably heterosexual couples)?

    You are begging the question somewhat by assuming that all ‘amateur’ porn isn’t harmful, or else you’re whittling down your ‘good porn’ to a tiny and theoretical proportion that you haven’t yet proven even exists.

    ‘Amateur’ is a genre/style of mainstream porn, it doesn’t guarantee anything about how the porn was made or what images it includes.

    If by ‘amateur’ you mean anything that was filmed by one of the participants, with no film crew or set, then every filmed rape is also ‘amateur’ porn. You don’t know if what you are watching was filmed consentingly, or if it was consenting, if consent was given for it to be publically broadcast, ‘revenge porn’ is a new big thing.

    “Would it not be better to separate out the factors that attack the problem more directly, for example by educating people in sexual safety, by investigating pornographers to weed out the abusive ones, and by innovating new technologies that improve consumer safety or remove the need for live models?”

    I blog about sex and relationships education already, and call for comprehensive, age appropriate sex and relationships education already, there’s a category link in the sidebar.

    Pornographers have no interest in working ethically, they lobby against condom use, and against having to prove that they have checked the age of the women involved, any threat to their ability to do whatever they want to women and they threaten to go underground and do worse (they do HIV testing, but only as it is the bare minimum they can get away with or risk being shut down). The demand is for more and more extreme and violent images (with a few ‘sex positive’ ‘feminists’ whining in the back-ground that they’re not getting their ‘ethical orgasms’).

    I have no idea what you mean by “new technologies that improve consumer safety”, blocks and filters already exist, if you think it’s possible to write a filter programme that can magically recognise ‘good porn’ you are living in a dream world. As for the lack of need for ‘live models’, how is showing horrific sexual violence against an indistinguishable-from-real-life virtual character going to help in terms of not encouraging sexual violence in the real world?

    “Using the banhammer seems to me the first resort of the uncreative and inflexible dogmatist. We also know that a ban would create a black market, an unregulated nightmare that would leave more victims in its wake.”

    I’ve never spent any time on this blog calling for porn to be banned. In fact, in this very thread, I wrote this:

    “Censorship alone is pointless, we’re challenging porn culture as a whole, not just pornography itself, but the attitudes that allow it and are enforced by it. If I could wave a magic wand so that all the porn disappeared, but nothing else changed, it wouldn’t make any difference, pornographers would just make it all again; this blog is here to challenge porn culture the idea that porn is just ‘harmless’, ‘fun’ or ‘fantasy’, and to educate about the negative effects it has on women and men.”

    There’s a lot of debate in the press at the moment over somehow banning internet porn, I have my doubts over how affective it could be, and there is the risk of websites about, eg, breast cancer or safe sex education being caught up in such filters.

    The most effective thing would be for credit card companies to refuse to process payments, the commercial porn industries would collapse overnight.

    You talk about a black market, but there has never been a ‘white’ market, there has never been regulation. Deep Throat was made with the ‘performance’ from a woman who was being battered and threatened with death by her husband/pimp; the mainstream gonzo industry in LA leaves women with prolapsed anuses and STI’s in their eyes; trafficked women and children are used to make porn, and pornographers travel to the global south to get away with abusing women on camera more easily; any rapist with a camera phone is a pornographer. You put forward these putative ‘ethical’ producers who are all happy, loving couples, if that exists at all, it’s a vanishingly miniscule percentage of the whole.

  156. Hello Missfit, and thank you for your comment, you make some very good points.

    I do think that gay porn is just as bad as heterosexual porn, for the reasons we have both stated already (and I think performers in some gay porn do tend to get fixed roles, especially when there is a difference in age, race, or body-type).

    Gay porn is consumed by heterosexual women, and gay men will be in positions of power over women, eg a juror in a rape trial, so the misogyny and rape-culture of gay porn is also a feminist issue.

    I have quoted male writers on the subject of gay porn, and I have also blogged about men being abused to make heterosexual fetish porn – something else mjsb missed.

  157. With all that being said, you really wonder why there is always someone bringing out gay porn as an argument AGAINST the idea that porn is misogynist in almost every debate on the subjet. Go figure…

    Also, the second link there: horrible. The level of degradation and torture to be found in the porn genre seem endless.

  158. ignorance or disingenuousness, as if there has to be a woman in the room for there to be misogyny.

  159. What a load of bs. Porn and prostitution are not inherently exploitative as you claim. Like other previous moral panics, you look at societal problems and link them to a scapegoat. Porn is as exploitative as alcohol is dangerous. Regulation, not prohibition, is the answer. Just as you can enjoy a glass of wine with the pretense of relaxation, you can enjoy 50 shades of grey with the pretense of romance.

    Your issues are with unregulated capitalism, not porn in general, so stop demonizing it. Yes women are (but don’t necessarily have to be) exploited in porn and this is a problem which criminalization has and will make worse.

    You also like many feminists make idiotic claims that porn promotes “rape culture”. I am personally into female domination porn (trust me the male actors often enjoy this), however I do occasionally indulge in male domination porn, because my girlfriend likes to be dominated (she has told me and hinted in other ways by sending me “nonconsent” literotica stories to read) and I enjoy it too. These fetishes despite what you say are not caused by porn and are nothing to be ashamed of and have a greater biological grounding than you would like to admit eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_fetishism#Causes . There is no need to be morally dogmatic as long as this is just fantasy, which porn is (when it is regulated, your issue is with rape and exploitation, not necessarily porn).

  160. Pornography isn’t criminalised, all the abuse, the HIV infections, the STD in the eye infections, the prolapsed anuses, the hospitalisations after a BDSM shoot, are happening within the legal (US) industry, an industry that lobbies hard to make sure there isn’t any further regulation.

    Nothing you’ve said actually refutes the existence or causes of rape culture. The fact that you get off on being dominated is irrelevant (you are getting of on being treated like a woman ie, being treated as sub-human, that should, if you were to undertake a genuine critical analysis, actually tell you something). The fact that your girlfriend wants to be dominated (and we only have your anonymous word for it that she even exists), is irrelevant also, masochism is the only version of female sexuality that is presented as authentic; that somebody does what they’ve been conditioned to do anyway, doesn’t prove that there is no conditioning.

    The Wikipedia source re. fetishes is hardly definitive.

    “There is no need to be morally dogmatic as long as this is just fantasy”

    How is it ‘just fantasy’ when it’s happening for real in the real world to real people in order to make recordings of it? How is it ‘just fantasy’ when other people are copying those recordings? A fantasy is what happens inside your head, outside of your head is called ‘reality’.

  161. I agree that it is bad that all of this abuse happens, but I reject your claim that in general “Pornography harms women”. That is like saying “alcohol causes harm”, alcohol can actually be good for you in moderation.

    You would have to first make a falsifiable claim regarding rape culture for me to be able to refute it, besides you have the burden of proof.

    “masochism is the only version of female sexuality that is presented as authentic”

    As somewhat of a masochist (I’m not really into hardcore stuff, not that it matters) I empathise with this sentiment, but women are entitled to whatever sexuality they were born with, as are men (my girlfriend and I have had our fetishes since childhood, when we were “innocent” and unaware of porn).

    I’ll concede that conditioning is somewhat of a chicken and egg situation regarding the wikipedia article.

    Summing up, you make numerous claims of the form:
    There exists A which have property B (albeit many, by all means regulate and eliminate these ones where there is abuse)
    Therefore all As have property B

    or even just:
    A

    I reject these claims, and you should too. Eg counterclaim for porn => abuse, the movie Pirates XXX although cliched and conservative in its gender roles did not feature any rape or violence.

  162. “you are getting of on being treated like a woman ie, being treated as sub-human, that should, if you were to undertake a genuine critical analysis, actually tell you something”

    I never thought of it that way and have been thinking about this all day but don’t know what you mean. What do you think it should tell me? I never said anything about being treated like a woman, but if you say so.

  163. “You would have to first make a falsifiable claim regarding rape culture for me to be able to refute it, besides you have the burden of proof.”

    There is a list of categories in the side bar, it includes one called ‘we live in a rape culture’, it currently has 158 blog posts, knock yourself out.

    “my girlfriend and I have had our fetishes since childhood, when we were “innocent” and unaware of porn”

    That doesn’t prove that fetishes are innate, just provides evidence that childhood experiences have an effect on our adult selves (which is currently the most accepted explanation for parasexualities). It’s not like misogyny and female masochism doesn’t exist in the mainstream. It’s not like images influenced by porn aren’t visible in the mainstream.

    “counterclaim for porn => abuse, the movie Pirates XXX although cliched and conservative in its gender roles did not feature any rape or violence.”

    Oh wow! One whole porn film! One whole porn film, which, according to you, doesn’t contain any violence!

    One whole porn film!

    “I never said anything about being treated like a woman, but if you say so.”

    To be dominated is to be treated like a woman. Under patriarchy, femaleness is synonymous with femininity, is synonymous with weakness, submissiveness and subservience. Any man who is not properly masculine (strong, powerful and in control) is weak and therefore feminine and therefore like a woman.

    It’s inscribed in the language, to call someone a ‘pussy’ to make someone your ‘bitch’.

    It should tell you that what you are getting off on is women’s second-class status in relation to men, and as such can never be remotely subversive, because you need the status quo to get off on.

  164. Ok here is a porn link which contains no rape or abuse, within 2 or so hyperlinks:
    [link removed]

    It may vary for you because of googles filtering et cetera but I’m pretty confident you will have similar results.

    Could you just tell me what evidence contrary to your beliefs would change your mind? For me it would be either:
    1) A valid argument with reasonable premises we both agree on
    2) Empirical data showing that watching porn increases rape incidence

  165. The link you left didn’t work, please state which search engine terms you are using.

    This is the second time you’ve described what an argument is without actually making an argument yourself.

    This blog is my argument, it’s clearer and clearer that you haven’t actually bothered to read any of it.

  166. It was the first page of google results for porn.

    Could you just tell me what evidence contrary to your beliefs would change your mind?

  167. So what exactly were you trying to prove by linking to the first page of Google results for ‘porn’? You claim there was a link there with no rape or abuse, but you seem reluctant to tell me what it actually was, why not just name it?

    Your argument seems to be that because some porn, according to you, isn’t abusive, then porn isn’t a problem.

    Did you know, that during the Transatlantic slave trade, not every slave owner was cruel and vicious, some educated their slaves, some even freed their slaves, therefore, by your logic, the Transatlantic slave trade wasn’t the problem, it was only bad slave owners, even if 99% of slave owners were bad.

    You’re not providing any evidence, you’re just saying “oh no is isn’t!” over and over. You haven’t demonstrated anything. You said that the claim that porn promoted rape culture was idiotic, but you didn’t offer any evidence or rationale to demonstrate how masturbating to material full of images of rape, or women saying no, then acting like they like being forced, doesn’t reinforce the ideas of rape culture in the real world.

    To change my mind you would have to prove to me that misogyny doesn’t exist, that there is no connection whatsoever between the culture we consume through words and images, and the culture we practice in person, you would have to prove to me that orgasms aren’t a powerful conditioning force. In other words, you would have to prove to me that the world is entirely different to what I see every single day.

  168. What I meant was recursion depth 2 (every link on that page plus every link from each of those links), I claim none of them are links to women being raped or abused and that the majority of them are porn movies.

    “To change my mind you would have to prove to me that misogyny doesn’t exist, that there is no connection whatsoever between the culture we consume through words and images, and the culture we practice in person, you would have to prove to me that orgasms aren’t a powerful conditioning force. In other words, you would have to prove to me that the world is entirely different to what I see every single day.”

    Ok, after I prove god doesn’t exist

  169. Oh my god you arrogant little pissant, so I have to look at every single link under the search term ‘porn’ on Google in order for my argument to be valid?

    Why don’t you look at every single link, then contact every single woman involved and find out if she was entirely happy with what happened on the porn set (assuming it was a porn set, and not just someone putting a filmed rape, or private recordings up on the internet), in order to prove your point, no big deal huh, since you expect me to do something similar?

    You’ve actually contradicted yourself here, you admitted earlier that there was a lot of abuse in porn, now you’re claiming that all the porn on the internet is free from images of abuse, those two statements do not add up.

    One of the most famous porn films in the world, Deep Throat, was made by a woman violently coerced into it by her abusive husband/pimp; the abuse of women to make porn isn’t just some accident, it isn’t a by-product of the demand for cheap labour like sweat-shop factories making trainers, men want certain types of images (double anals, ass-to-mouth, women being choked and hit during sex), images that can only be obtained through abuse.

    “Ok, after I prove god doesn’t exist”

    So you’re saying misogyny isn’t real, that us silly little women just make it all up? Are you really claiming that images don’t affect us at all? How does advertising and art and religion work? If someone wrote a blog post about how racist stereotypes in the media harmed black people, would you tell them it wasn’t a problem because it’s all fantasy?

    The argument that porn is harmless would work better if we didn’t live in a world with such high rates of physical and sexual violence against women.

  170. To compare the existence of god with the existence of misogyny is entirely wrong-headed. The existence of god is a non-falsifiable belief, because belief in the existence of god is down to faith, and no amount of evidence of the non-existence of god will have any affect on that faith.

    To say that the existence of misogyny is a non-falsifiable statement is preposterious, it is falsifiable; we can come up with a definition of misogyny we both agree on, for example, the belief that women are worth less than men, and then we can see if that belief is exercised in the real world (and I can give you dozens of examples that it does just off the top of my head).

    Your statement “Ok, after I prove god doesn’t exist” was lazy and a piss-take, and your contemptive dismissal of what I said with that lazy piss-take, is an example of misogyny in itself, you don’t think you have to listen to women when they are saying something you don’t like, you don’t think you need to waste the effort coming up with a real argument, you think women who disagree with you are beneath you.

  171. Hi, I find this article explains really well why pornography is a huge problem.
    Would you allow me to translate this text in French and publish it in my blog (with credit and link to your site, of course)?

  172. […] ************************************ Traduit de l’anglais par moi-même. Source : AntiPornFeminists […]

  173. Hello, and thank you for the translation!

    It was very interesting to read through; I did French at school, and feel that I kind of understand it (eg when watching a French language film with sub-titles), while no longer being able to speak it. I was surprised how much I could understand looking at the French and English in parallel. Also interesting that there is no direct translation for ‘mainstream’.

  174. Bonsoir !
    Indeed mainstream is usually left in English but I translated the meaning in case some readers are not sure about it.
    It’s great you still remember French enough to understand much of the translation. :)

  175. They seem like very similar languages to me (they’re not, English is a Germanic language), probably only because I learned it at school!

    Thanks for the info, I find what does and doesn’t translate between different languages fascinating.

  176. So do I! In fact I work as a translator. :)

    I’ll keep reading your blog… A bientôt !

  177. Two things i noticed here after reading all the comments.

    1- The comment that said “I’ve heard on several occasions women saying finding out their partner used porn hurts more than if he had slept with other women.” is the stupidest thing i have ever read in my life.

    2- You think you’re so awesome at this and all your opinions are fact, when really, you just act like a total asshole to anyone who does not agree with you. People are polite, you insult them. That does not make you good at arguing or right, It simply makes you look like a total bitch.

  178. No, I don’t think I’m awesome, I know I am, and that’s a fact.

    And please do point out all the ‘polite’ commenters , and explain exactly how I’m being rude to them.

    One guy called me a cunt, and you’ve just called me a bitch, do you consider yourself to be polite?

    My guess is that you have a problem with any women asserting herself and expressing opinions you don’t like.

    My guess is you have a problem with women full-stop, or rather, you are a problem to women with your contemptuous misogyny.

  179. […] just going to intercede here and reproduce what has become my stock response on this blog whenever someone comes up with the but patriarchy/sexism/misogyny existed before […]

  180. I don’t know if this thread is deceased now but….

    How do you propose porn is to be eradicated? Do you propose state control of the internet?

    Would prohibition not lead to a similar situation to 1920s USA and alcohol – ie porn would still be widely available but entirely unregulated and massively more criminally profitable. I think state regulation would just transform porn into a more valuable commodity.

    I’m not sure porn can be successfully curtailed. It’s too easy to distribute via networked systems. Consequently for the state to control it’s citizens access to porn there would have to be a catastrophic dismantling of our freedoms and our privacy. Is this what you advocate?

  181. If you had bothered to read this comment thread properly, you would have seen that I have already answered all you questions already, more than once. You would also have seen that there have been people commenting on this thread since November 2008, and the last comment was made in November this year, so you comment about the thread being ‘deceased’ just makes it more obvious that you haven’t actually read it.

    I assume you are referring to the mainly LA based US porn industry, and will respond with reference to that, but remember, any rapist with a camera phone is also a pornographer.

    The thing is, the US porn industry is already legal, it is already entirely out in the open, and it already, theoretically, is subject to US health and safety laws. These laws are blatantly flouted; there is no other industry where it would be acceptable for the ‘work’ itself to leave women with injuries that require a hospital admission (where the injuries are caused by the ‘work’ itself, rather than an accident due to a lapse in health and safety), expose ‘workers’ to bodily fluids, and regularly infects ‘workers’ with sexually transmitted diseases.

    There’s no other industry were the body that claims to represent the ‘workers’ (in this case the astroturf-esque ‘Free Speech Coalition’), actually is no more than a lobby group for the bosses, and actively argues against safety measures like condom use, and checks on the age of the ‘workers’.

    The only reason I can think of that the US based porn industry gets away with this, is because it is about ‘sex’, and because it happens to what is seen as (by mainstream, male-dominated culture) a sub-group of disposable women.

    There is not much more the porn industry could do to harm women, the pimps/pornographers could kidnap women off the street, could kill them afterwards and dump the bodies, except this kind of thing already happens to these ‘disposable’ women; women and girls trafficked into prostitution are already used to make pornography.

    The simple fact is that genuine health and safety protections for ‘workers’ in the porn industry would make porn production impossible, there is no safe way to have a man ejaculate on a woman’s face at work, there is no safe way to do a double-anal, or ass-to-mouth, to be choked or throat-fucked. If there was ever any kind of real union for porn performers, that had real clout, and had representatives on every porn set to make sure ‘workers’ weren’t abused, porn production would be impossible.

    The whole ‘black market’ exists already, and there is no reason to suppose that it is somehow smaller than the ‘white market’.

    I don’t think criminalising ownership or viewing of pornography would be much use, it would be unenforceable and a huge drain on police resources. Internet filters, opt-in or opt-out, may help, but then there is the risk of sex education and, eg, breast cancer sites being blocked. I think credit card companies refusing to process payments would help, but then there are ways round that like ‘free’ sites funded through advertising.

    Making it easier for women who have been abused to make pornography to make criminal or civil charges against their abusers would help, and also allowing women who were abused by men who were obviously re-creating the porn they had been consuming, to sue the pornographers, would help rebalance things in women’s favour (this, of course, happens to men and boys too, but it happens to women and girls more).

    There are other, more long-term things, like reducing poverty so women don’t end up in the sex industry in the first place, challenging all the other forms of misogyny and male entitlement that make women second-class citizens, etc, etc.

    This blog is about challenging porn culture, and educating about how pornography contributes to misogyny and rape culture. Comprehensive, age-appropriate sex and relationships education which warned about the warping effect of pornography would be a very good thing. I want people to reject pornography because they realise that it is unethical, and that by consuming it, they are contributing to human rights violations.

  182. Credit card companies refusing payment seems like a good approach, but it would take a lot of managing – and then theres bitcoin. If credit cards were blocked then porn could really accelerate the takeup of bitcoin (in my view a happy unintended consequence).

    Porn is undoubtedly a dangerous and pernicious disease that alters minds and contributes to the degeneration of society.

    I don’t know any feminists but I read what they write and I imagine they don’t spend a lot of time considering male psychology. In fact I get the impression that we may as well be a different species.

    Thinking about it as a bloke who could be into porn were I a different person – and we can all become different people under different circumstances. If I asked myself why would I do that, I would have to say that alienation is a large contributing factor. I would say it’s because I don’t give a shit because I don’t feel connected to your society and so I don’t care if it degenerates. In fact I would be happy to indulge in destructive behaviour towards a society that basically doesn’t like me and considers me worthless.
    I have nothing to lose by this behaviour so I will take short term satisfaction if I don’t believe there is any long term benefit to me in behaving differently. Like the vast majority of men I would never hurt anyone directly and personally, but porn is a little personal bubble of rebellion that I can have. I could behave like this and be that man and I am a naturally self reliant and positive person. I know that many human beings are more lost than me.

    I think it’s a fundamental difference in the wiring of male and female. Women know they are always of value because they can have babies. Men can easily become worthless if they aren’t locked in by social constructs. Men who perceive themselves as worthless indulge in societally risky behaviour and destabalise because they have nothing to lose.

    Feminism isn’t ever going to successfully bully or shame men into giving up porn. They have to have a positive reason for wanting to give it up. The right buttons have to be pushed.

    Men who aren’t kept positive become destructive. Men can either destroy or build but they aren’t designed for stasis. This is the part of human nature that achieves so much very quickly but it is also why societies can never stand still. They are either developing or degenerating and I believe Western society has now entered a degenerative phase. The calculated alienation of masculinity is accelerating that degeneration. The thinkers behind feminism can’t be unaware of this and since feminism so often positions itself as a catalyst for these type of changes I rather assumed it is an intentional strategy.

    Yes, I know all men are beasts, blah, blah…

  183. There is no conclusive evidence that men and women are ‘wired’ differently; many studies show that there is more difference between individual women and between individual men, that between the ‘averaged out’ man and the ‘averaged out’ woman, it’s just that studies that claim to show innate gender differences are the ones that get into the mainstream press.

    If women are valued because of our reproductive capacity, we are valued the same as a dairy cow, as chattel, which is what women still are in many parts of the world, property of their father or husband, or of the state. A lack of access to safe, legal, affordable abortion turns women into chattel in several ‘civilised’ countries as well. Also, women who breed outside of socially accepted parameters – ie, while not being white, middle-class and married – are vilified as a drain on the state and/or immoral.

    Women do not control society, men dominate the government, press, higher education, big business, the arts, and the women who are allowed in often have to take on a male/masculine-centric way of thinking to get on there.

    You talk about men perceiving themselves as worthless, and seem to think that feminism is to blame for this. Feminism, the challenging of the old hierarchical status quo, offers men real alternatives to the patriarchal model of dominance and submission, but too many men prefer dominance.

    The thing is, masculinity has always been a gamble, not all men can win at it. What many men seem to want now is all the rewards, with none of the risks. There is this massive sense of entitlement, men feel they are entitled to have their lives serviced by women (whether they are fulfilling a ‘traditional’ male role or not), and when women refuse to do that, men feel cheated. Men may well turn to porn for ‘revenge’ when the women in their real lives aren’t giving them what they feel they are entitled to. So what are you saying? Women should put out more, should pander to men more, prop up men’s egos more, or else?

    Feminists are not ‘misandrists’, we’re the only ones saying that men are actually capable of controlling themselves, that they’re not ‘beasts’ who cannot be held responsible for their actions.

    The world is not run by a secret cabal of radical feminists out to get men. If some men feel devalued in modern society, that’s probably got more to do with capitalism and the loss of reliable, unionised manufacturing jobs in the global north, but bashing feminism is always easier than a class analysis.

  184. The point I was making was that the sexes are in a symbiotic societal relationship that always seeks balance (balance doesn’t always mean harmony). You cannot change one sex on a societal level without changing both. If you make changes without understanding (or caring) about this then you may get results you don’t want. Porn is at least in part (I suspect a very large part) both a symptom and a barometer of male disengagement. Men are entirely capable of controlling themselves in ways you would approve of but if you want them to do so they must feel that there is something in it for them. You can bang on about female victim status as much as you like but most men don’t care because it’s not the reality they see around them every day. I know lots of women and I don’t know a single one who is a victim of the patriarchy any more than I am. But in this regard female victimhood is irrelevant anyway. What many women, and feminists in particular, seem never to grasp is that it isn’t always all about them. This is a malaise that can’t be fixed with more feminism. Men can and will vote with their feet. Being able to do this is the one major advantage of being the expendable sex.

    You seem to imagine men are in charge. The men in charge are the ones in charge. 99.99% of men are just worker drones who are starting to feel they have nothing to lose by behaving in societally degenerative ways. To these worker drones the gender of the people at the top (a major plank of feminism) makes absolutely no difference at all. You have your glass ceiling but men just have the ceiling. Male drones only see their own little picture of what goes on in their own little sphere and the only really significant power they have over their lives is to engage or disengage. If it becomes a sensible calculation for them to disengage then that is what they will do.

    I think the rise in porn, along with computer gaming, is a part of the changes taking place in male life that are in part a compensation for the changes feminism has brought about in female life. I have no idea of the magnitude. I know feminists like to quantify everything with statistics but I really don’t know. But I do know male life is changing and this is part of it. I don’t see these aspects of change to be particularly positive but I understand why they are happening and consequently why feminism will be powerless to stop it – because feminism is a causal catalyst of it (not the only catalyst).

    ps I only said what I said. Nothing more and nothing less. I never mentioned revenge. The overwhelming majority of men are emphatically not misogynistic. Most of us genuinely want women’s lives to be better but most of us also see on a daily basis that women’s lives are in reality no worse than our own.

  185. Funny how so many men and women miss the point here … that eroticised sexism and violence can never be empowering to women and children as a group, and pumping this media propoganda out is totally against the principles of the Equalities Act 2010 etc etc etc. Either men need to sign up to equality or admit they are bigots, this tedious act of denial is the draining thing …

  186. Vicki,

    Good point! But all the standards that would pertain in any other field of existence, somehow seem to stop counting when the subject is ‘sex’.

    flobblywobbly,

    You may not have said revenge, but pornographers themselves have said that their porn is about men getting revenge on the women in their lives who have pissed them off, and they know their demographic.

    You say the vast majority of men are not misogynistic, and that none of the women in your life are victims, I would suggest that you simply cannot see (and why would women tell you about their victimisation anyway?). One just has to look at the mass sexism of ‘lad’ culture in universities (it is now considered ‘normal’ for men to try to insert their fingers into women’s vaginas at nightclubs), or the rape and death threats levelled against a woman who dared campaign for a woman to appear on the £5 note, to see that misogyny is not something rare or unusual only perpetrated by out-liers.

    You say that most men face a ‘ceiling’, but there is no magic ‘in-road’ available only to women. Getting more women into high-powered positions, without changing the status quo in any other way, was labelled ‘power feminism’ by bell hooks, and while I think getting more women into positions of power is good, with the caveat that for it to be good, women have to change those institutions, it is not a major plank of radical feminism.

    You said before that feminists don’t understand men, you are wrong, no oppressed group can afford not to understand its oppressors, and no group in power has ever given up that power because those without asked nicely.

    The bulk of what you are saying still seems to be placing the burden of responsibility for giving men’s lives meaning onto women, in other words casting women into the same oppressive role of self-sacrificing nurturer. Why can’t men work these things out for themselves? The simple fact is that masculinity cannot function without dominance, that is what it fundamentally is; men have, at various points in time, managed to come up with different ways to ‘be men’ (taking cues from feminist critiques and the gay liberation movement), but as I said before, too many men are unwilling to give up on dominance.

  187. I think the dynamics of the human race are beyond the ability of the feminist model to instantiate. It seems to me that if you think only through the prism of feminism you will miss much of what is actually going on and what you do see will be constrained within that paradigm.

    For me, the really big flaw in the feminist world view is also one of it’s major strengths as an essentially negative political movement: Feminism only accepts two aspects of masculinity, the Alpha Male and the Psychopathic Sexual Bully. It projects the characteristics of these two groups onto our whole society and pretends that these two numerically small subgroups are actually the same thing and calls it Masculinity. It totally ignores the 99% of the male population who aren’t either (the bulk being family men) and then distorts the dynamics of family life with it’s power hungry meddling. I always assumed that this was an intentional and manipulative ploy rather than dogmatic stupidity because feminism has gained great advantage in the liberal west by taking this line. Follow the money as they say.

    However when dealing with the impending realities of increased male disengagement in our society I believe this world view to be hugely counter productive for everyone. Screw up the family and you screw it up for all of us.

    I think that if feminism isn’t really interested in listening to men or understanding them then it isn’t ever going to be instrumental in reversing the reality that porn is now mainstream. Nor does it deserve to, since it claims to only represent one half of society whilst vilifying the other half. Many of the UK population are starting to prefer porn to real partners and it isn’t because they are all psychopaths. Unfortunately the forces that are driving this trend are (unwittingly or deliberately?) introducing minds to sexually reinforced degenerate pathways. A very powerful, dangerous and unhealthy mix that promotes moral dissolution.

    Though I’m pretty much with you on the porn thing I would fight any attempt by feminism and the political establishment to own the wider internet to my dying breath. My opinion is that porn filters are a trojan horse issue designed to establish the principle of internet censorship and the control of political ideas. A situation where the routinely feminist “equalities” minister decides what ideas are allowed to gain public traction would be a very dark day for democracy and for wider human development. An unholy alliance between government and feminism to screw the rest of us over. Luckily the generation of men who initially built and now maintain and develop the internet are not so easily bullied by the fact that some men somewhere else are rapists. I doubt they will give feminism control of the internet simply because feminism claims all men are psychopathic sexual bullies. Many of them ARE the disengaged ones and they are legion. I don’t think feminist governments can control them and unless feminism relinquishes one of it’s major sources of power – the “All men are psychopathic sexual bullies so you must think and do as we say” line – then it won’t ever gain widespread traction amongst the younger males who drive the internet. Put simply: If I had to choose between a feminist/government controlled internet and the scourge of pornography I would choose the porn every time. Feminism would perhaps be wise to not force the internet to make this choice. There is always a gender balance even in a chaotic and degenerative cycle.

    Interestingly I read recently that Britain is the world’s fastest growing market for internet porn. I don’t find this surprising considering Britain is in the forefront of male disengagement. It is also unsurprising that semi critical sites like the tame Guido Fawkes blog ([EDIT: link removed]) are being clumsily blocked. I don’t believe this to be intentional but it does indicate that political ideas are being interfered with – they just haven’t got the filters correctly tuned yet. Happily someone has already released a free browser plugin to bypass the filters. Hopefully this will become standard issue very quickly. We are not North Korea yet.

  188. There are lots of different studies showing that between 10 and 25% of men are rapists (more men will admit to being rapists if the description of rape in the question doesn’t actually include the word ‘rape’), and lots of other men are passive bystanders to rape culture.

    Research into female victimisation, whether it’s battery, rape, childhood incest/sex abuse, shows that around 25% of women are victimised at some point in their lives.

    Violence against women is not rare, and it is not committed by only 1% of men. ‘The family’ is the main way men access women and children to abuse, with such abuse, throughout most of time, being either legal, or overlooked, as women and children were (and still are in may parts of the world) seen as the legal property of the husband/father.

    Rapist are not ‘psychopaths’ they are otherwise ‘normal’ men, that’s what ‘rape culture’ means, it means that rape is normalised, it’s something that otherwise ‘normal’ men can do.

    Masculinity is predicated on domination and control, that is what masculinity is, and you haven’t offered any proof, evidence or rationale otherwise. (In case you are confused by the terminology, ‘masculinity’ is not the same thing as ‘maleness’.)

    Feminists are the only ones saying that men are actually capable of controlling themselves, the mainstream, male-dominated attitude to rape is ‘boys will be boys’ and telling women not to go out alone at night.

    I have already said that I don’t think internet filters are the answer, because they can be used to censor other sites.

    You haven’t responded to half the points I’ve made, just expelled a lot of hot air.

    What do you actually want from me as a reply? I’ve stated more than once that I don’t think it’s women’s responsibility to make men’s lives meaningful, you haven’t directly responded to that at all.

  189. You seem very hung up on the issue of dominance. You said “Masculinity is predicated on domination and control, that is what masculinity is, and you haven’t offered any proof, evidence or rationale otherwise.” As a response, then, I would like you to give this a bit of consideration…..

    It is my view that the power dynamic between men and women is much more subtle and esoteric than the intellectual framework of full-on feminism is capable of either modelling or conceptualising.

    Have you ever considered how and why women respond positively to dominant men? As a man I have found myself in the position of women ending relationships because I’m not sufficiently dominant. In such situations what is the real power dynamic? Is a man who is required to be dominant or he’s toast actually as dominant as an outside observer might imagine?

    Learning about the true nature of the human race is more than a lifetimes work and we can’t both exchange our (I would guess) very different life’s experiences through a few forum posts. Academic studies really don’t cut it because people only study things when they know what questions to ask and when they can get funding. No-one would ever get funding for studying aspects of female nature that drive feminism to incandescence.

    Consequently the very strong response that human females have to dominant males is, as far as I’m aware, a taboo subject in academia. But even if it wasn’t I don’t need an academic to tell me the bleeding obvious.

    The best example I have seen so far of someone trying to deal with this honestly, caringly and practically is Athol Kay at [EDIT: link removed, it's a load of MRA crap]. If you visit this site and hang out on the forums for a while. You would have to spend several days to fully get the nuances of it….

    You must be aware of the “Pick Up Artist” movement doing the rounds at the moment? This is based entirely on the idea that if you push a woman’s dominant male receptor buttons you will get laid. It’s a bit gross and misogynistic but it is rooted in practical reality.

    What percentage of women respond positively to dominant men? I’m pretty sure no-one has tried to quantify it but my guess would be that it’s most of them. I would be surprised at anything less than 50%. How many women would admit publicly to responding in this way? I’m pretty sure no-one has tried to quantify this either but my guess would be that almost none of them would admit it. So how do you measure an aspect of human nature that plainly exists, is highly significant in the relationship between the sexes, but that no-one will admit to?

    How does this relate to the subject of porn? Well, I suspect it’s not as clear cut along gender lines as you may think. I suspect the sickness that characterises much porn is a corruption of human nature that is far from an exclusively male corruption. It’s just that the visible symptoms are expressed primarily through the male side in the external world – as is often the case. Furthermore, on top of this you have the involvement of money-men, criminals, maniacs and the psychologically damaged. It’s a real mess, but primarily I see porn as a symptom that so easily becomes causal.

    As you may have guessed feminism doesn’t impress me much as a system of ideas. This is because it seems to spend much of it’s time and effort attempting to prevent honourable people from asking the right questions.

    It is my view that unless feminism ups it’s game considerably it doesn’t have real answers to the porn epidemic.

  190. “Have you ever considered how and why women respond positively to dominant men?”

    Yes, I have considered it an awful lot, and if you had actually read even a small amount of this blog you would have seen that. Girls are fed female subordination from early childhood, it’s there from Beauty and the Beast, all the way up to Fifty Shades of Grey, It’s reinforced in the world around them, by other women as well as men, women are low level enforcers of patriarchy too.

    Maybe you are confusing ‘confident’ with ‘dominant'; nobody really likes people who are whiny and self-pitying all the time, and the most confident, well-liked people manage to be that way without dominating those around them. In fact, dominating behaviour, if it comes across as empty bluster, can look the opposite of confident, one suspects the person attempting to manipulate and control is trying to compensate for some lack.

    “No-one would ever get funding for studying aspects of female nature that drive feminism to incandescence.”

    Are you kidding me? We get a new Brain Sex! press release every few months.

    “You must be aware of the “Pick Up Artist” movement doing the rounds at the moment?”

    Yes I am aware of it, and large numbers of women, including me, see it as creepy and pathetic, and aren’t fooled at all.

    “How many women would admit publicly to responding in this way? I’m pretty sure no-one has tried to quantify this either but my guess would be that almost none of them would admit it.”

    There are all kinds of evolutionary psychology research projects, of varying levels of legitimacy going on out there.

    I put “study male dominance female subordination” into Google, clicked on the first link for ‘scholarly articles’, and got over 92,000 results (not all of them will be relevant, as some will be studying animal models etc.), you’re not looking very hard.

    As for women not daring to admit to wanting to be dominated? Women in the BDSM scene won’t shut up about it. BDSM is now so mainstream that there are BDSM clubs on university campuses in the US.

    “I suspect the sickness that characterises much porn is a corruption of human nature that is far from an exclusively male corruption.”

    Yes, I know that women get off to violent porn as well, and I have written critically on the subject. It’s hardly surprising, it is sold to us as the only form of sexuality that is legitimate, so of course some women are going to want their own slice of the rotten pie, to be victimisers rather than victims.

    “As you may have guessed feminism doesn’t impress me much as a system of ideas. This is because it seems to spend much of it’s time and effort attempting to prevent honourable people from asking the right questions.”

    Oh please, what a joke, the science community is not run by a secret cabal of radical feminists, people do research all the time trying to prove brain sex, and to support evolutionary psychology Just So stories that justify the status quo, such research does get funding, and it gets much more attention in the main stream press than all the studies that show that there is not much difference between men and women.

    What you are Flobby, is a victim masculinist, you have tried very very hard to ignore what the male dominated main stream is actually like, so you can paint yourself as a ‘nice guy’ victim because women prefer the ‘alpha male’ ‘cock carrousel’ (or whatever the current MRA in-speak is), and barricaded yourself within an MRA/PUA/MGTOW ghetto were you can play the perfect ‘beta male’ victim forever.

    And there is an obvious contradiction to your two main claims: you say that violence against women is vanishingly rare, but at the same time women want violent (‘dominant’) men – or do you get off on ‘benevolent patriarch’ power fantasies?

    “It is my view that unless feminism ups it’s game considerably it doesn’t have real answers to the porn epidemic.”

    So I’m going to ask you again, for the third time, what is it you think women owe men? Because you are very strongly implying that men’s porn use and putative disengagement from society is women’s fault – so what should women be doing? Putting out more, putting up with more abuse, giving pity-fucks to whiny MRAs – or else?

    I will also point out that you have not responded at all to many of the points I have made, for example: you said that women were valued because of their reproductive capacity, I pointed out that reproduction was only valued in certain women, and that lack of reproductive rights turns women into chattel – no response.

    You also claimed that violence against women was only perpetrated by 1% of men, I pointed out that there were many studies proving otherwise – no response.

  191. [EDIT: No porn is ok, and if you'd bothered to read even a small percentage of this blog you'd have seen that I've already answered almost all of your stupid questions.

    Also, keep your dorky ~femdom~ fantasies to yourself.

    Also, fuck off with the numbered lists of questions, do you think I have nothing better to do with my time than cater to you?]

  192. Thank you for this piece.
    I don’t remember who wrote it now but I love this comment “man fucks woman” subject verb object. Its the law of pornography.

  193. Hey lady B, you aren’t a true “feminist” you are a thinking, feeling, compassionate and principled human being who cares about people rather than just wanting to simply dominate them as “real” (ie wealthy coddled elitist white feminists and their co opted drones do.)

  194. That’s a nice sentiment, but the comment you’re responding to is from 2009; she may still be reading though :)

  195. About the second sentence of “Pornography portrays sex and women as disgusting”…sometimes partners enjoy consensual name-calling and dirty talk. Do you object to that as well?

  196. I object to the use of abusive language in all situations.

    ‘Dirty talk’ is too vague a term, which can mean any sexually explicit talk; I don’t object to a man saying ‘I want to put my penis into your vagina’, I do object to a man calling a woman a ‘cumdumpster’.

  197. This is an interesting discussion. We want to create an alternative to porn and this is great research. Would love to hear some more of your opinions about sex and relationships so if you have a mo please fill out out anonymous sex survey:

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/VG3WDLK

    [EDIT: I don't know who the people running the above survey are, filling in the survey couldn't do any harm, but it's never a good idea to give out personal information to random strangers on the internet. APL]

  198. I’m seeing nothing here but the usual lazy stereotypes and sweeping generalisations about pornography so often trotted out by its opponents.

    I have to ask: what sort of images spring to your mind when porn is mentioned? Is it the oft-conjured-up images of men deriving sexual pleasure from beat, choking and practically raping hapless women who are appearing to enjoy it even as their heads are being shoved down toilets? Because, if so, then that says more you than it does about porn.

    This may be news to you but there is tonnes of pornography out there that doesn’t remotely resemble this. A few seconds on any porn search engine will make that abundantly clear.

  199. Oh gawd, another arrogant, condescending, finger-wagging dudebro who thinks his porn is so different.

    And this one is so arrogant, he’s calling himself a feminist.

    Newsflash for you dudebro, if you knew anything about feminism, you wouldn’t be calling yourself a feminist.

  200. The survey is anonymous and it’s just getting an idea of what people want/ don’t want to see on the internet, i thought it would be good to get a feminist perspective. maleredfem, a lot of porn is exactly that. i am not massively against it myself, but i feel like the female body has just become another commodity and a lot of porn looks more like a meat counter rather than anything erotic… i don’t know why you suggest that this means more about me than the porn industry… i don’t understand that argument.

  201. I’m pretty sure ‘maleredfem’ was addressing me/this post, rather than your comment.

  202. Hello, I re-sent you a private email on March 21st. Its email topic is ‘Can you help please’. Can you please respond directly to that email? I would very much appreciate your insights and guidance. Many thanks.

  203. Dear SS,

    You sent me a very long email full of explicit descriptions of pornography, which, to be entirely honest, freaked me out a little bit. I get lots of strange emails, some are obviously fishing for a reply in order to get hold of an IP address, I tend to err on the side of caution.

    Also, with all due respect, I am not an essay on demand service, and, if I had other good ideas about what to do about pornography, I would be blogging them already, I’m not holding anything back for a special occasion here.

    If you’re email was genuine, then you have my apologies, but really, what do you think I can do to help you?

  204. Thank for what you’re doing here. When I reposted one of your blog posts elsewhere, someone commented “saying that all pornography is bad because some women are abused in its production is like saying all sex is bad because some women are raped”. What would you say to that?

  205. The sex industry is an institution, to focus on the 0.1% of already privileged individuals in it who have a great time and make a load of money (if they actually exist, I get the impression that ‘alt’ porn isn’t actually very profitable) is completely dishonest.

    It also supposes that the sex industry can some how be made nice, that the bad stuff is just a temporary thing, or an accident, it isn’t; the sex industry exists because men want to abuse women and children (and other men), the vast majority of porn is abusive, and contributes to rape culture, because men want to consume that porn, if men wanted better quality porn, it would already exist in large quantities.

    Imagine there was a factory, and in that factory there were 999 shit jobs with dangerous machinery and a very high probability of serious injury, and 1 really good well paid safe job. The factory can’t run with just the 1 good job, it needs the 999 shit jobs to run as a factory.

    That’s the sex industry. As I have said numerous times already on this blog and elsewhere, the sex industry is a pyramid with a very broad base, and those at the tip are standing on the backs of those underneath.

    The analogy with sex and rape is flawed, what they are really saying is: you can’t criticise men because not all men are rapists, which, again, ignores that we are talking about institutions here.

  206. As a teenager and a male I completely agree. I have watched and now have stopped watching the overhyped disgusting porn. I want a women’s opinion on what I should do with a girl though. She doesn’t respect herself and has slept with a number of guys at house party’s. I’d like her to start to respect herself and understand that she isn’t an object and that she isn’t something that a guy can abuse use then throw away as if she’s a broken tool in a shed. However I don’t want to do it so bluntly and say such things. And I don’t want to be oppressive or intimidating, any advice?

  207. Hello,

    Thank-you for your thoughtful response written April 2 (above). I apologize for my delay, I was looking for an email response and should have checked this site earlier.

    The way in which you can help me is to work together with me on a mass email to be circulated to our acquaintances. Our acquaintances would in turn forward to their acquaintances and so on. It is the type of letter with which many activists build awareness and support. Your reputation and knowledge would give it credence. This letter would spell out the shocking aspects of pornography that few know of, which I exposed in my email to you. Knowledge is power, and as I mentioned in my original email, the more people know about the violent, shocking nature of porn, the more they will stand up to it, and the safer women will be.

    In my original email, I tried to expose the shocking aspects of pornography that apparently no one sees. Combine this horror- with a lack of public knowledge, you’ve got trouble. The fact that women don’t know how horribly their own bodies are treated in pornography, is a travesty, an unacceptable naivete. And people have to understand what’s out there to protect each other, and themselves. When mind-bogglingly unacceptable behavior is accepted, promoted, and consumed as in porn, it is a true risk.

    I am genuine and am happy to correspond with you via email further.

    Many thanks. Keep up your vital great work.

  208. Hello again SS,

    I’m afraid your email idea just wouldn’t work. It would be, at best, spam, and, at worst, harassment; and at very worst, if sent to/from someone’s work email, it could get them into a lot of trouble.

    I think most women, and probably nearly all young women (in the global north that is), already know how bad porn is, the problem is a lack of consciousness, of solidarity, of awareness of political alternatives. Spamming women with explicit descriptions of pornography isn’t going to help that.

    If you want to do something positive, try setting up a feminist group in your area, you don’t even have to be overtly partisan, just give women a space to talk to each other.

  209. Timmy,

    Just be a genuine friend to her, show her that she doesn’t have to put out in order to get male attention. Anything more than that would be just an alternative form of male domination.

  210. Timmy, i applaud your thoughtful and mature attitude! I would say that you can’t change anyone, but as she is young, with love and kindness, she may see a different way to be…

  211. Antiplondon,

    I think you are a very wise, brave, honest woman. Your feedback does help me, for that I thank you.

    Just to be certain, did you read the email I sent Mar 4th, or instead did you read the original one sent prior. I resent on Mar 4th because the original got truncated. If you just read the original email, can you please read the one sent Mar 4th and let me know if you still feel most women know how bad pornography is?

    Re your thoughts, what kinds of political alternatives to pornography exist, as you mentioned? And yes, thank-you for the keen suggestion, I can start a group. I can also discuss objectification (generally, not explicitly) with friends. Because agreed, we need to raise solidarity and consciousness. We need to discuss the commodification of women, from the accepted notion that men naturally consume and discard women, to the humiliatingly exposing swimsuit and ‘flesh’ magazines, to the exposing and compromising portrayal of women in movies, etc. All this ties directly to the objectification and to the unconscionable, violent dehumanization in pornography. Also, women need to learn how to protect themselves.

    Thanks

  212. Paulina Wilson

    OMFG SOMEONE FINALLY SAYS IT!! I have been a feminist for a long time and always knew that there was something wrong with pornography and just how horribly sexual society’s views on women really are. I’ll admit that I’m only 14 and in a ghetto school struggling in some classes because of these immature, sexist guys that always have to make little comments and disgusting rape jokes and I am sick of it. I literally feel like I am trapped in a bubble and I assume that other girls might feel the same way. Ok this is getting too long so I’ll just say, again, love your blog and I really felt I could relate to it and I hope you have a nice day :)

  213. Pardon me for play devil’s advocate, but what about women who enjoy porn? And what one woman may find degrading and disgusting, may make another feel beautiful and worshiped. I hope this question get answered, and I meant no offence.

  214. Dear SS,

    I did read your full email, my assessment of your chain-email idea remains the same.

    By ‘political alternatives’, I meant political alternatives to the status quo generally (ie not accepting that porn is normal, natural or inevitable, that men need porn, that ‘boys will be boys’ etc).

  215. Dear Paulina,

    I’m very happy that this blog is helpful to you. You shouldn’t have to put up with sexual harassment at school, is there a teacher you can trust enough to talk to about it? I know it isn’t easy, but have you tried discussing this with other girls in your school? You might find that they are just as frustrated as you, and together you would have a stronger voice.

  216. Madison,

    What about women who enjoy child porn? Just because something gets a woman off, doesn’t make it feminist.

    Yes, some women are masochists, female masochism is indoctrinated into women from child-hood (think Beauty and the Beast).

    If you think that any and everything a woman does is ok simply because she wasn’t forced to do it with a gun to her head, liberal ‘feminism’ is the school of ‘thought’ for you. This is a radical feminist blog, radical means pulling things up by the roots/going to the root of the problem.

    The sex industry is inextricably tied into women’s subjugation, the fact that individual women get off to porn, or profit from the sex industry, is irrelevant, radical feminism is about a structural/class/caste analysis of how all women are affected by the institutions of patriarchy.

  217. With all due respect: I was not talking about child pornography, but two adults making the choice to preform. What about when women are dominate and take control in porn, is that still teaching women to be submissive. I know that we have very different views and I deeply respect your opinion because we are both for gender equality, and I am genuinely curious. I am not trying to troll your website. Thank you for answering my previous question with respect, I truly appreciated that.
    Thank you again,
    Madison

  218. Madison, I gave an example using child pornography, because you told me that some women enjoyed porn as if that proved something.

    Female ‘dommes’ are a male fantasy, they are still doing what men want.

    In real life, the women ‘taking control’ in the porn industry are the women behind the camera, making money off of other women’s backs.

    The vast majority of women in the porn industry are there because they are poor, and have few other options, the use of drugs and alcohol to get through a ‘performance’ is testament to this.

    All porn commodifies sexuality, to focus on the minute percentage that isn’t as bad as the mainstream, is setting a very low bar.

    As a side note, radical feminism is about the liberation of women, equality with men is a meager substitute; I don’t want to live in a world where women are just as violent as men raised under patriarchy, or a world where, eg, there are as many male anorexics as female ones.

  219. Hi, I think Madison brings up some interesting points… I am not against pornography because it harms women. I believe it’s a complicated issue which is about more than just poverty. I imagine many women are attracted to being a porn star because they were abused for example, others may enjoy being watched… could be so many reasons… of course I don’t think it’s a positive way to address those issues. To me, what’s really sad about pornography is that we are moving away from sex as something beautiful and into the realm of commodity… objectifying our bodies to the point where they become slabs of meat

  220. Hmm, you say pornography reduces women to slabs of meat, but also that it doesn’t harm women … actually, the grammar of your first sentence is difficult to parse; either you are saying that you believe pornography harms women, but that is not the reason you are against pornography, or you are attempting to say that you are not against pornography because you don’t believe it harms women, or, creeping into the absurd, you are for pornography because it harms women.

  221. […] and promoting anti-porn groups: some that have been mentioned above and others like the anti porn feminists, anti-porn activist, […]

  222. I don’t know if this has already been answered or addressed elsewhere on this blog, but it’s a question that I keep asking myself at the moment. I have recently come to a larger and more complete understanding of the dangers of the current state of the porn industry, especially on young people. I completely accept and agree with every one of your statements above. However, I still pull myself back from labelling myself as ‘anti-porn’, and I think that’s because, for me anti-porn is only anti to the current state of porn. I think and will always think that the concept of viewing sex easily for personal pleasure is the wonderful and freeing idea that never actualised, as the patriarchy and capitalism took over porn, just as it’s taken over every industry. So I think that maybe identifying as ‘anti-porn’ is fighting the wrong battle? I’m definitely anti the porn industry as is, but the idea of porn is exciting, revolutionary and freeing to me. Any thoughts? Sorry if this is badly written, I hope I’m making sense.

  223. I am an adult film actress and I don’t think any of what was posted on top is true. I like what I do, I chose to do it, went to college, have my masters and I still do what I do. Because it’s fun, because it pays well and because I make the rules. I was not molested or raped, ever. Anything and everything we do is consensual and safe.

  224. valiakohnahawake,

    “I’m definitely anti the porn industry as is, but the idea of porn is exciting, revolutionary and freeing to me”

    Problem is, what you are describing is entirely theoretical; porn hasn’t been co-opted by capitalism, porn is capitalism, it is the commodification of sexuality, and the violence and degradation is not an accident, any more than poverty is a slip-up of capitalism (capitalism wouldn’t work if there weren’t any poor people).

    Esther,

    Thing is, you’re posting entirely anonymously, with a made-up email address, and could be anybody (men love posing as women on the interwebs), if you are an ‘adult film actress’, why not leave a comment under your screen name?

    Even if what you are saying is true, then that makes you an exception, rather than the rule in the sex industry, as I have said many times before on this blog, the sex industry is a pyramid with a very broad base. You get to do your ‘empowering porn’ on the backs of all the women in the sex industry who don’t have any choices.

  225. Antiplondon,
    I understand but even if I used a real email address that wouldn’t make me any less anon. Believe it or not, I get more harassment from places like these via email, they find my phone number, etc and I get my own personal abortion clinic protest style form of harassment anywhere I go. I have a life outside of work, a twitter, meet up groups, etc that all gets ruined by people who don’t approve of what I do for work.

    I had a coworker, an other girl much more… Ok she was a door mat. Came from a bad relationship, got into this sort of thing, worked similar scenes to mine and when things got bad, she always took it. She didn’t know how to say no, that was just her personality. In every relationship she had (and they were all bad), her day job (dream job where she was never getting ahead because she lacked leadership anything or a voice) and in adult roles, people told her what was going to happen she said oh I don’t like that but ok. And then cried about it. We talked a few times and I even told her, it’s not being a bitch if you don’t want to do something and didn’t agree before hand, it’s business. It looks worse on them to spring things up on us than for us to refuse. Nick*, a producer, and in my opinion the best at what he does, can’t get girls to work for him. Nobody wants to. He will “fire” you if you don’t do what he asks even if you didnt agree to it before. He is royally screwed. He has to pay girls 2 and 3 times what he used to to get them to even come in. Well this girl, she is just an abused woman who keeps looking for abuse. Her daddy beat her, 1st hubby beat her, she got her dream job and instead came here to take an other beating. I honestly do not understand her other than she can’t live without someone abusing her and pushing her limits. Not sure if that is the kind of women you’re talking about but it’s the saddest person I’ve met in the industry.

  226. “Believe it or not, I get more harassment from places like these via email”

    No, I don’t believe you. Men are the ones who stalk and abuse women, not radical feminists; conservative/religious women may well do this kind of thing, but radical feminists do not. If this has happened to you, then name the radical feminist website that did it (and I didn’t ask for an email address anyway).

    If you are an adult performer, then why not give your screen name? It’s not like you’re doing it in secret, any porn consuming man can see the porn you are in.

    I don’t know what you think you’re proving with the rest of your comment, except that you’re confirming that the porn industry is abusive.

  227. Antiplondon, Sorry about my grammar, it does indeed make it difficult to determine what i was trying to say… i meant that i am against pornography in theory, but not because i feel it harms the women taking part necessarily – i believe that it harms society looking at our bodies from that perspective, boys who grow up watching it are harmed too for example.

    Esther, i wasn’t trying to say all women in the porn industry are abused, i said it’s a complicated issue and people do it for many different reasons, i imagine. as you say, you co-worker was “a door mat” – she sounds like the sort of person who would be harmed by doing it, and in trying to heal herself she repeats abusive patterns. that’s very dark. there are probably many women like her in that industry too. out of interest, can i ask why you do it?

  228. I agree the violent and degrading nature of some porn is a very real problem. I personally find it disturbing.
    But I will have to disagree with you on “misogynistic beauty standard.” The traits of physical attraction are genetically encoded. Your method of thinking could also be applied to the view of the natural male body. No public hair, big penis and no fat. It is natural to be attracted to theses traits. If you are arguing that porn creates unrealistically high standards, then I would agree. But to say it is of misogynistic flavor is wrong.
    Everything else mentioned in your article was great and spot on.

  229. “The traits of physical attraction are genetically encoded”

    If they are, then they bear no correlation with the beauty standards for women in porn.

    In a ‘state of nature’ a hairless pubis is a sign of pre-pubescence, and therefore an inability to bear children, there is no evolutionary advantage to having sex with a pre-pubescent girl. This trend for lack of pubic hear was created by porn in the last few decades.

    The habit of women removing their leg hair is less than 100 years old in the west, and it’s a trend that was created by the razor-blade companies because the male market was already saturated. Or do you think paleolithic women were shaving their legs?

    Similarly, a complete lack of body fat would also signal an inability to procreate (below normal weight leads to sterility), and a likelihood of not surviving the next lean period, both signals that attempting to procreate with such a woman would be a waste of time because it would not result in offspring (if you are going to argue ‘genetic encoding’ that means you are saying everything we do is geared towards reproduction). I suggest you google the artist Rubens to get an idea of what was considered an ideal body shape for a woman a few hundred years ago.

    Hairlessness in men is only a very recent trend, and one driven solely by porn: men remove their pubic hair in (het) porn for the sole reason of not obstructing the camera shot – nothing to do with ‘genetic encoding’ there. Look back at male ‘pin ups’ from the ’70s, all hairy as anything.

    I describe the aesthetic in porn as misogynistic because it requires women to starve themselves, depilate themselves (costly and painful and unhealthy, women who have their pubic hair ripped out have a chance of getting infections in the follicles that lead to cysts), undergo painful, expensive and dangerous plastic surgery, cripple themselves with high-heels and corsets, and emulate a set of submissive behaviors.

    It also requires women to try to emulate pre-pubescent girls, the harmfulness of which (regardless of evolutionary psychology arguments) should be obvious.

  230. Many names are attached to porn, and as is revealed, many confused feelings arise from its consumption. but there is one simple essential thing that defines porn.
    It is utterly loveless.
    So it can be, and is, anything and everything that love is not.
    Since we are made of love, the acceptance of anything loveless hardens and dehumanises us (whether we are aware of it or not) and thereby extends the same to all we touch and those we relate to.
    And so the poison is spread and multiplied as the ability to recognise and reject lovelessness IN ANY FORM is diminished by the hardening.

  231. I agree that porn is loveless. I would also argue that there is a lack of desire in porn and that it’s unnatural, ironically, since sex is the most natural thing in the world! I am talking here about the majority of porn in the US and the UK, I have however seen some Japanese porn which was natural, the bodies were normal and the woman had pubic hair. This is very rare and no representative of the porn industry on the whole I would say

  232. Japan? Seriously? You’re talking about a country with a massive child porn problem, that has only just recently banned the ownership of child porn (but with exemptions for drawn child porn because it’s such a big money-making industry), and has been producing extreme fetish imagery for hundreds of years.

    The only reason the woman you saw had pubic hair is because the depiction of pubic hair used to be illegal. How was it ‘natural’? Was it filmed secretly? Or did it just not look like US produced gonzo porn?

  233. No, it was natural because the people looked natural, and it was an older woman with a younger man, but it wasn’t fetishistic. But I’m not here to defend porn. I don’t have these extreme views on porn. I don’t think it’s good, but I’m not massively anti either. It seems like only extreme views are acceptable these days

  234. I agree that porn is loveless, however is it possible that the only true way to address this issue is to look more honestly at why it is happening in the first place, and to ask why more and more people, men and women (of all ages) are using, involved in, or turning to porn. I understand that media, marketing and technology etc. all play their part in promoting this activity and making it more accessible and acceptable etc., but what I’ve starting to consider, is ‘why’ is it that individuals are looking to engage in this behaviour in the first place…

    I’ve read some other blogs recently on this topic of pornography and what I found really interesting was that although it was from two different perspectives (one from a man and his experience of pornography and the other from a woman whose husband was using pornography), they both talked about the addictive nature and the energy of porn, and the hold this has. They also raised the issue that although porn is often used in an attempt to seek intimacy, it is actually devoid of true intimacy and can never provide this. Is it then worth asking, or at least considering, what is going on if we ‘are’ seeking intimacy and why we don’t have this in our daily lives and relationships, and then need to use porn (or any other activity) to try and fill this?

    I feel the picture is much bigger than perhaps we have considered thus far. Yes, we need to raise the awareness of this issue – absolutely (!), however laws to make porn illegal or less accessible or less socially acceptable, will ultimately not address the root cause of this issue as people will still continue to feel the same, and if it’s not porn they get relief from, it may end up simply being substituted for some other distraction or vice (be this alcohol, drugs, abuse etc.). If we don’t stop to look at what’s really going on, or look for ways to arrest the momentum or hook of this cycle of behaviour, we may just end up going around in circles, and find ourselves further in a mess. Perhaps another perspective to consider in this discussion…

    Here are the links for the blogs I referred to for anyone who is interested…
    http://womeninlivingness.com/2013/03/26/the-harm-of-pornography/
    http://truthaboutsergebenhayon.com/2013/06/02/porn-an-addiction-worth-talking-about/

  235. Zuza Zak,

    “It seems like only extreme views are acceptable these days”

    Oh grow up. If you can’t handle even the smallest bit of criticism, stop coming here and leaving inane comments.

    I am not interested in ~your porn~, and I’m not going to give you a head-pat for the fact that you’ve seen some porn that you consider to be ‘natural’ – which is an entirely useless definition anyway, as all the other porn is real and exists ‘in nature’, it wasn’t grown in a petri dish.

  236. Angela,

    All very interesting points, and I have touched on these ideas here and there on this blog.

    Yes, porn harms men, yes, patriarchy harms men, and our atomised, selfish-individualist capitalist society harms everyone; but the massive epidemic of human rights violations against women and children concerns me far more than whether or not men feel ‘lonely’.

    Such arguments risk laying the blame for male violence at women’s feet; observe this MRA up-thread whining about ‘hypergamy’ (women having too much sex with someone who isn’t him) and the ‘unbalanced dating scene’ (women having too much sex with someone who isn’t him).

    Men feel entitled to have their lives serviced by women (emotionally, sexually, economically, domestically), that is the underlying problem.

  237. I don’t condone or support abuse, however we definitely need a deeper understanding of what is going on for people and what precedes these behaviours in order to adress them, and without them becoming more than a tempory fix or relief. We have all contributed to certain ideals and beliefs about how men, and how women, should be in society, and the types of roles we take on, but perhaps it is these ideals we should start to question, and why and how we have taken them on as the preceding step to some of these societal and global issues such as porn. Perhaps then we will not only address the issue of porn, but start to understand a lot more of what is really going on in the world for everyone.

  238. What you are describing here is the gendered conditioning children are subjected to from birth, that conditions girls to masochism and servility and boys to dominance and aggression.

    Second wave and radical feminists have been talking about and challenging this for decades, it isn’t actually a great mystery, it’s patriarchy.

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